Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:24 am

porpoise wrote:I mean the cycle of biological birth and death, as described in the suttas. As distinct from the purely psychological rebirth which you seem to be describing.


Sorry, I don't understand.
I don't know what you mean by "purely psychological".
By that, do you mean "rebirth" as simply a metaphor for a state of mind?

One's physical body is not reborn anywhere. It returns to its elements, gets eaten by buzzards or what have you.

What is "actually reborn" in the realms of samsara is the experience of a "self",
just as you and I experience selves having this discussion.

"Actual rebirth" is nothing other than the reoccurance of delusion.
deluded mind is the only thing that takes rebirth,
and experiences the realms of samsara as intrinsically real.
The realms of Samsara are simply elaborate extensions of the
extremely vivid and realistic experience of
an inherently existent self.

The only way the human realm could have any intrinsic reality to it
would be if there was some truly inherently existing self.
But the Dharma teaches that this is not the case.
If there is no intrinsically existent self,
how can the realms of samsara be anything more than a projection of mind?

Furthermore, there is no essential difference between
the buddha mind and the deluded mind,
between buddhas and sentient beings
except that one is free from delusion and the other is not.

The other realms of samsara are no more real than this human realm.
.
.
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby AJungianIdeal » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:23 am

Wouldn't Entropy sort of nullify any natural force that caries out rebirth?
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby smcj » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:29 am

AJungianIdeal wrote:Wouldn't Entropy sort of nullify any natural force that caries out rebirth?

My personal opinion is that evolution is the yang of entropy's yin. Evolution would also then be seen as the karmic cycle of this kappa ripening/progressing.

I know that's really weird, but it's just my personal take on things. Please don't take it seriously. I don't.
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby porpoise » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:37 am

duckfiasco wrote:How could there be a distinction between biological rebirth and "purely" psychological rebirth unless you're making some kind of dichotomy between squishy fleshy matter and some separate mind experience?


The distinction is there in Buddhism, ie nama-rupa, mind-body.
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:08 pm

AJungianIdeal wrote:Wouldn't Entropy sort of nullify any natural force that caries out rebirth?

if some sort of truly existent 'self' existed that was reborn, perhaps.
But since there is not a truly existent 'self' , entropy isn't really a concern.
But, to get really technical about this,
any supposed, permanent "self" wouldn't undergo any sort of change whatsoever.
It couldn't exist in relation to changing circumstances either.
.
.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:20 pm

porpoise wrote:
duckfiasco wrote:How could there be a distinction between biological rebirth and "purely" psychological rebirth unless you're making some kind of dichotomy between squishy fleshy matter and some separate mind experience?


The distinction is there in Buddhism, ie nama-rupa, mind-body.


The body disintegrates.
Mind itself occurs only as the arising, moment to moment, as the meeting of
awareness and objects of awareness.
The actions in this life create the conditions
for the specific arising of
awareness with objects of awareness.
in the next life.

Aside from that ripple effect , there is no continuous thing
any more than there is a continuous thing within one's own lifetime.
only a succession of similarly occurring events.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby porpoise » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:23 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
porpoise wrote:The distinction is there in Buddhism, ie nama-rupa, mind-body.


The body disintegrates.
Mind itself occurs only as the arising, moment to moment, as the meeting of
awareness and objects of awareness.
The actions in this life create the conditions
for the specific arising of awareness with phenomena in the next life.


So are we agreeing? I'm not sure. ;)
Last edited by porpoise on Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby porpoise » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:24 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:"Actual rebirth" is nothing other than the re-occurance of delusion.
deluded mind is the only thing that takes rebirth,
and experiences the realms of samsara as intrinsically real.


Yes, as illustrated by dependent origination.
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:46 pm

porpoise wrote: So are we agreeing? I'm not sure. ;)

I always agree with everything :tongue:
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Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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