Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby KevinSolway » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:13 am

Virgo wrote:Traditional Buddhist texts say that one chitta arises at a time.


That sounds reasonable, yet each mind has its own "stream" so to speak.

Imagine an ocean with countless underwater mountains. From time to time one of these mountains will rise above the surface as an "island", yet it is not independent of all the other mountains, and continues to be affected by them, and after a period of time it will go back below the surface, and another island will temporarily arise.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:57 am

KevinSolway wrote:You are dreaming!


Trounced on your misunderstanding of The All. One misunderstanding breeds more. If you fix your basic premises you will be fine. Then you can be a Buddhist instead of a syncretist.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby KevinSolway » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:28 am

deepbluehum wrote:Then you can be a Buddhist instead of a syncretist.


The Dalai Lama says that he thinks that Jesus may have been a bodhisattva. So does that make him a syncretist? Be careful what you say, as many people believe that criticising the Dalai Lama brings much bad karma - not that I believe them, personally.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:32 am

KevinSolway wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Then you can be a Buddhist instead of a syncretist.


The Dalai Lama says that the thinks that Jesus may have been a bodhisattva. So does that make him a syncretist? Be careful what you say, as many people believe that criticising the Dalai Lama brings much bad karma - not that I believe them, personally.


again with this goofiness? It seems like you don't realize that this is not a very important or meaningful statement. You want it to be a religion-unifier, but it is not. It is merely the Dalai Lama saying something that might be true, but means nothing, ultimately.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:38 am

KevinSolway wrote:The Dalai Lama says that the thinks that Jesus may have been a bodhisattva.


Just rhetoric. For this to be true, Jesus could not have held a wrong view like one person's suffering can alleviate everyone else's. Or he is speaking from a higher vantage point of some teachings that say at the end of the cosmic age everyone will have found the path and attained Buddhahood. Then, everyone is a bodhisattva even folks like you with wrong views.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:44 am

deepbluehum wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:The Dalai Lama says that the thinks that Jesus may have been a bodhisattva.


Just rhetoric. For this to be true, Jesus could not have held a wrong view like one person's suffering can alleviate everyone else's. Or he is speaking from a higher vantage point of some teachings that say at the end of the cosmic age everyone will have found the path and attained Buddhahood. Then, everyone is a bodhisattva even folks like you with wrong views.


He could have been a bodhisattva. It doesn't mean he was anywhere NEAR the level of Avalokiteshvara, for example. Also, his teaching (if indeed his legend is based on any reality) may not have been accurately relayed through the ages.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby KevinSolway » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:54 am

deepbluehum wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:The Dalai Lama says that the thinks that Jesus may have been a bodhisattva.


Just rhetoric.


Well that's a pretty severe criticism, I must say.

For this to be true, Jesus could not have held a wrong view like one person's suffering can alleviate everyone else's.


I haven't seen any evidence that he did hold such a view.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby KevinSolway » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:55 am

:focus:
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby muni » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:29 am

Clarifying compassionate hand by wisdom or habitual apprehended ideations.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsite ... ebirth.swf
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:05 am

KevinSolway wrote:...If consciousness were independent of the physical world ... then it would be eternal and unchanging. Likewise if there are separate streams of consciousness, independent of each other.
Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong! On both points!

...as the monk in my video says that it is...
Does Ajahn Chah specifically state that at some point of the video? Please give the point in time in the video where he says this.

Regarding Nagarjuna's words, you have misunderstood the import of them.
:zzz:

He is saying that you should not grasp at things as though they possessed inherent existence.
I am quite aware of this, but thanks anyway for reminding me. :bow:

He is not saying that things do not have causes, or that there is no past.
Bzzzzzzzzzzt! Wrong again! One more strike and you're out!

Chapter 19. Investigation of Time
1. If the present and the future were contingent on the past, then the present and the future would have existed in the past.

[Commentary by]Tsongkhapa: If both the present and the future were intrinsically existent, one could not pass beyond either of them. Therefore, if both the present and the future were contingent upon a time which is past, then both the present and the future would have existed in the past. Because if those two times were intrinsically existent, then their being contingent upon the past would also have the nature of intrinsic existence, and since such a nature would have to be unambiguously the case mi 'khrul pa at all times and places, it could never change into anything else. ... If those two times existed in the past time, then they too would be past, in which case one would be unable to posit a past, because, if the past and future are posited as such due to their being respectively past and future in relation to the present, if there were no present there could be no past either.

2. If the present and future did not exist there, then how could the present and the future be contingent on it?

[Commentary by] Tsongkhapa: If, having accepted the argument which has just been given, one now thinks that both the present and the future did not exist at that past time, then how could they be contingent on the past? They could not.

3. Without being contingent on the past neither can be established. Hence the present and the future times also do not exist.

[Commentary by] Tsongkhapa: Following those who believe the past to be permanent, could it be that both [present and future] do not need to be contingent on it? But without being contingent on the past neither [of them] can be established. This is so, because [of the following reasoning]: (a) were such things as sprouts to have their own self-nature, they would be unable to pass beyond that [condition]; (b) but it is impossible to posit the present without taking into account its being contingent on the past; (c) and the future too must be indirectly contingent on the past, because it is posited as the future now due to its having not yet occurred. If those two times were not contingent on the past, they would not [have to] be contingent on anything else either. Thus, due to their not being contingent on anything, they would be as non-existent as the horns of a donkey. In this way contingency or non-contingency on the past cannot intrinsically exist. Hence both the present and the future times also do not intrinsically exist.

4. These very stages can be applied to the other two. Superior, inferior, middling etc., singularity and so on can also be understood [thus].

[a-b: this means that you could say the same about past and future in relation to the present and present and past in relation to future as you can of present and future in relation to past as Nagarjuna has just done in v. 1-3.]

[Commentary by] Tsongkhapa: To understand how the past and future’s contingency on the present and the past and present’s contingency on the future are likewise not intrinsically existent, the very stages of reasoning already used to refute the intrinsic existence of the [present and future’s] contingency on the past can be applied to the arguments on the intrinsic existence of contingency on both the other two times of present and future. [Verses 1-3] could then be altered as follows:
If the past and the future
were contingent on the present,...
...Hence the past and the future times
also do not exist. and If the past and the present
were contingent on the future,...
...Hence the past and the present times
also do not exist.
These very stages in which the three times have been analysed can lead to an understanding of how all tripartite divisions and relationships can be explained: superior, inferior and middling; skillful, unskillful and unspecified; arising, abiding and ceasing; inner, outer and central; the three realms [desire, form, formless]; training, beyond training and neither; singularity, duality and multiplicity [?].

5. Non-dwelling time cannot be apprehended. Since time which can be apprehended, does not exist as something which dwells, how can one talk of unapprehendable time?

[Commentary by] Tsongkhapa: One might argue that time is inherently existent because it is something other than moments, seconds, minutes, day, night and so on. If "time" dwelled as intrinsically different from moments and so on, then although [in theory] it could be apprehended as something distinctive through moments and so on, "time" [as such] could not dwell in its own right as something apprendable through moments and so on. Therefore, since it does not dwell in such a way, time cannot be apprehended through moments and so on which are intrinsically different from it.

[But it might still be objected:] Permanent time does exist and is evident from moments and so on:
Time brings things to maturity;
Time brings people together;
Time awakens one from sleep;
It is extremely hard to go beyond time.
Why could there not be something with such characteristics? But a time which can be apprehended and made evident by moments and so on does not exist as something which dwells in its own right, because if it did exist as intrinsically different from moments and so on, it should be able to be known [as such] whereas in fact it cannot. ... Since such time is unknowable through any valid way of knowing, how can one talk of that unapprehendable time by means of moments and so on? One simply cannot.

6. If time depended on things, where would time which is a non-thing exist? If there were no things at all, where would a view of time exist?

[Commentary by] Tsongkhapa: Some might say: Although it is indeed true that permanent time does not exist, time configured in dependence upon conditioned things such as forms is what is denoted by the expression "moments and so on." Where would time which is a non-thing, i.e. which is intrinsically different from such things as form, exist? If, since [such time] could not exist, time is posited in dependence upon things such as form, and when, for the reasons already given and explained, there were no things at all which inherently exist, where would an inherently existent view of time configured on [things] exist? It could not exist.
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Inve ... on_of_Time

Kev, either you keep barking and pirroueting or you just relax (and maybe go and read the Mula madhyamaka karika) and learn something. It's completely up to you.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby KevinSolway » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:22 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Does Ajahn Chah specifically state that at some point of the video?


Yes he does.

However, if all you're going to do is say "No it's not", put your fingers in your ears, and spam reams of irrelevant text to the forum, then you can look it up for yourself. You won't be getting any help from me.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:36 am

KevinSolway wrote:Yes he does.
I didn't say that he didn't.

However, if all you're going to do is say "No it's not", put your fingers in your ears, and spam reams of text to the forum, then you can look it up for yourself. You won't be getting any help from me.
Quoting Nagarjunas text to show your lack of knowledge of Nagarjunas text is not spam. This, on the other hand, is spam:

spam.gif
spam.gif (32.89 KiB) Viewed 373 times


I'm actually interested in seeing Venerable Ajahn Brahms logic behind this purported statement, because it doesn't sound 100% correct to me either. So stop being a cry baby and please provide the link (to his video, not to your critique) to the info, like I have provided the links to all the info I have posted. Disagreeing with some of your opinions (I have actually agreed with you on some points, but you probably glossed over this reality) and providing examples of what I believe is "true" is not "putting my fingers in my ears" at all. You have your opinions and I have mine (and Nagarjuna has his). At some points they converge and at others they diverge. It's that simple.
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby LastLegend » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:48 am

:twothumbsup:
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby KevinSolway » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:07 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Does Ajahn Chah specifically state that at some point of the video?
Yes he does.
I didn't say that he didn't.


You asked me a question, and I answered in the affirmative. If that short exchange is any indication, then I'm not sure how possible it will be for us to have any kind of conversation.

The reams of text you have been posting to the forum concern the grasping at things as inherently existent. While it might serve anyone to understand those texts, they can't be used against my argument since I don't hold anything to be inherently existent. While there are things called "causes", they are not inherently existent.

The words you are reading right now really do exist, but they aren't inherently existent either.

The relevant parts of Brahm's video are interspersed with my own criticism.

You don't have to watch much of me talking before you can see Brahm speaking for himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jmx181ODtQ

Alternatively, if you have the time, you can watch the whole of Brahm's video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZZupDuprhU
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:14 am

Coz I also asked you to point to where he said it, because I don't like to judge people based on heresay.

Thank you for posting the links.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby LastLegend » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:36 am

Relatively speaking, the deluded mind is independent of the body. Ultimately speaking, physical and mind cannot be separated.
So the monk is not wrong.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby LastLegend » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:45 am

Take it easy. Too much thinking will hurt the brain.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:47 am

LastLegend wrote:Relatively speaking, the deluded mind is independent of the body. Ultimately speaking, physical and mind cannot be separated.
So the monk is not wrong.
Source please.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby LastLegend » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:48 am

LastLegend, the grand master!

Think. That's also your source.

But my friend Gregkarvanos, I often thought about this statement, "all dharmas created by the mind." If "all dharmas created by the mind," then dharmas cannot be seperated from the mind. Nothing then exists outside of mind. But relatively speaking, since we are deluded, our mind now is reduced to 8 consciousnesses which put limits on our mind, and this deluded/attached mind will continue to seek for a body to possess. So when the body dies, decays, or no longer functions, the deluded mind will search for a new body or form.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:56 pm

Exist within the mind.
Do not exist within the mind.
Both exist and do not exist within the mind.
Neither exist nor do not exist within the mind.

The four extremes as outlined by Nagarjuna and applied to your view.
Where to go from here then?
If you consider the rootlessness
of the real 1 , well,

it's revealed
through the gurus teaching

Saraha says: Fool!
Know this well-

samsaric distinctions
are forms of mind.

1 A common way of describing the emptiness of all phenomena.
Tantric Treasures: Three Collections of Mystical Verse from Buddhist India, Oxford University Press
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:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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