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 Post subject: Ignorance/enlightenment
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Based on my reading, there is a certain logic which states that we each are already enlightened except for the fact that ignorance hides this enlightenment from view. This ignorance is the result of karmic seeds from our past. Since, ultimately, there is no time or space, there is nothing actually separating this moment of ignorance from enlightenment other than the ignorance itself. (Please feel free to correct me where this needs adjustment.)

Some questions based on this:

If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here? Does anyone really try to live as if there is no time/space?

If I am already an enlightened being and have in my capacity the primordial mind, separated from enlightenment by ignorance, then where did this ignorance come from? Where did the karmic seeds come from? How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me, an enlightened being? And who is to say that upon liberation and enlightenment in this life or another life, ignorance and karmic seeds won't affect me again?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:23 pm 
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Epistemes wrote:
If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here?

Ultimately, we aren't.

Epistemes wrote:
Does anyone really try to live as if there is no time/space?

Oh yeah.

Epistemes wrote:
If I am already an enlightened being and have in my capacity the primordial mind, separated from enlightenment by ignorance, then where did this ignorance come from?

The same place the "liberated" mind comes from.

Epistemes wrote:
Where did the karmic seeds come from?

My responses to previous karmic fruit.

Epistemes wrote:
How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me, an enlightened being?

You chose to let them.

Epistemes wrote:
And who is to say that upon liberation and enlightenment in this life or another life, ignorance and karmic seeds won't affect me again?

Only you.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:32 pm 
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haha, this has bothered me too. In fact, I once freaked out for a whole day because I had convinced myself, using reasoning similar to yours, that enightenment was actually impossible. Nevertheless, I will try to answer your questions based on what I have heard. . .

Epistemes wrote:
If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here?


Due to karmic habits of perception, we perceive phenomena unfolding through time and space. This is merely a habit of perception.

Epistemes wrote:
Does anyone really try to live as if there is no time/space?


I hope not. It doesn't sound like a very skillful exercise.

Epistemes wrote:
If I am already an enlightened being and have in my capacity the primordial mind, separated from enlightenment by ignorance, then where did this ignorance come from? Where did the karmic seeds come from?


Karma comes from karma. The origin of all karma is beginningless time. Sorry, that's about the best answer I've gotten on this. Suffice it to say that samsara, like nirvana, is infinite.

EDIT: actually, recently I saw Anam Thubten Rinpoche give a dharma talk. Someone asked him this same question. He said there are two answers to this - the real answer, and the play answer. The play answer is "karma originates in beginningless time." The real answer is "Who cares?" :smile: He likes his students to give up searching for enlightenment or worrying about ignorance, and just practice in every moment. :meditate:
Epistemes wrote:
How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me, an enlightened being?
.
They actually don't have any affect on your Buddha nature. They only affect your ego, which is an illusion.

Epistemes wrote:
And who is to say that upon liberation and enlightenment in this life or another life, ignorance and karmic seeds won't affect me again?


Buddha said so :D . . . and as far as I can tell, Buddha's the expert on enlightenment. My logic and guesswork fall short, so I default to the experts. But like I said, I have spent some time fretting over this, until I just gave up trying to figure it out. At a certain point you cultivate faith in the inconceivable, because you have to put your faith somewhere . . . and Buddhism has convinced me of the limitations of putting my faith in samsara. So what other alternative do I have? If liberation is not permanent, then Buddhism is completely useless, at least by its own standards.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:39 am 
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Epistemes wrote:
If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here?

You seem to see emptiness as non-existence, but that is not what emptiness is. Emptiness is neither existence nor non-existence. The point is to stop seeing things as "this" or "that" and experiencing the world without false conceptions about things. You still see the world; it doesn't disappear. All the same things are still there, but they are empty.
:namaste:


Last edited by Kyosan on Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:39 am 
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We are not already enlightened. We are afflicted. There is only one way to become enlightened and that is to obtain merit and wisdom. That is the only way. Buddhism presents various methods for doing so.

I have seen a couple different explanations for why ignorance is present, based on the yana teaching about ignorance. All of them are true, some just go deeper than other depending on peoples capacity.

Generally speaking, ignorance has just always been present, and it's chain of manifestation will not be broken without the right conditions.

Kevin

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:11 am 
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I would like to talk about addiction. I know I am addicted to a lot of things. Addicted to sex and eating. And addicted to laziness. Addicted to pleasures. Yes I am an addict. Some are addicted to intelligence. What are you addicted to?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:17 am 
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When I look at my mind, I am trying to understand what it is that holds me imprisoned.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:03 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
When I look at my mind,


a christian and a pagan were discussing their differences, the christian boasted that jesus promised to rid the world of misery and suffering, the pagan said that his god Odin, promised to rid the world of giants, and that he had not seen any walking around......!

it seems to me that buddhists also fall into those two ways, the fantasy of looking at a mind, and practical of ridding oneself of worldly "giants".

:yinyang:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:13 am 
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Heruka wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
When I look at my mind,


a christian and a pagan were discussing their differences, the christian boasted that jesus promised to rid the world of misery and suffering, the pagan said that his god Odin, promised to rid the world of giants, and that he had not seen any walking around......!

it seems to me that buddhists also fall into those two ways, the fantasy of looking at a mind, and practical of ridding oneself of worldly "giants".

:yinyang:


I am not enlightened. So I cannot grasp what you just said. I am still attached, so it has to be "my." When I have become Buddha, I will no longer be.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:21 am 
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LastLegend wrote:

I am not enlightened. So I cannot grasp what you just said



:coffee:

yawn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:23 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
I would like to talk about addiction


OP was about ignorance/enlightenment.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:29 am 
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Addiction is ignorance. Free from addiction is enlightenment.

Any more concerns?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:03 am 
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I'm just a student and practictioner. I don't claim any special insight.

Quote:
Epistemes-Based on my reading, there is a certain logic which states that we each are already enlightened except for the fact that ignorance hides this enlightenment from view.

That doesn't sound right to me. All sentient beings have the potential to realize Buddhahood. Buddhahood is a potential that is realized through Dharma practice. That potential is empty so it is not something that can be destroyed by ignorance or any conditions. It can become obstructed in the same way clouds can obstruct the sky but cannot actually destroy it. Most important is that if you just look at your experience you will know you arent a Buddha.
Quote:
Some questions based on this:.
If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here? Does anyone really try to live as if there is no time/space?

That doesnt sound right to me. Space and time are conditions of this world we live in. A simple and obvious fact. I hope nobody is out there trying to pretend that space and time doesn't exist. :crazy:
All I can tell you is to study some teachings on Dependent origination and emptiness and see how it applies to your sense experiences.

Quote:
If I am already an enlightened being and have in my capacity the primordial mind, separated from enlightenment by ignorance, then where did this ignorance come from? Where did the karmic seeds come from? How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me, an enlightened being? And who is to say that upon liberation and enlightenment in this life or another life, ignorance and karmic seeds won't affect me again?
[/quote][/quote]
Well I hope at this point you realize that you aren't a Buddha. :jawdrop: You weren't ever enlightened.
So where does ignorance come from, where does karmic seeds come from? They come from your mind, where else? Ignorance is not something that exists outside your mind like some bad guy coming to get you. You ask "how come ignorance affected me" as if it were another person that did something to you. It is your mind that experiences ignorance. You cannot experience ignorance without your mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:49 am 
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:smile:
Epistemes wrote:
Based on my reading, there is a certain logic which states that we each are already enlightened except for the fact that ignorance hides this enlightenment from view.
. Since, ultimately, there is no time or space, there is nothing actually separating this moment of ignorance from enlightenment other than the ignorance itself. (Please feel free to correct me where this needs adjustment.)

Some questions based on this:

If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here? Does anyone really try to live as if there is no time/space?

If I am already an enlightened being and have in my capacity the primordial mind, separated from enlightenment by ignorance, then where did this ignorance come from? Where did the karmic seeds come from? How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me, an enlightened being? And who is to say that upon liberation and enlightenment in this life or another life, ignorance and karmic seeds won't affect me again?
.
---------------------------------------
Quote:
Based on my reading, there is a certain logic which states that we each are already enlightened except for the fact that ignorance hides this enlightenment from view


What you are refering to is the assertion that our original nature is a "Buddha nature" which is what all sentient beings are born with.
It is not Ignorance that hides this fact from an otherwise inteligent sentient beings...it is your "Egp mind"
The Ego mind is that mind that generates the "I" identity you percieve as "real"
The Ego mind says, "I am", "I want", "I like", and such statements.
The Ego mind also generates that (non-existant) illusion that the idenities "I" and "other" that are somehow independent identities
The Ego mind is inherently selfish....and for that reason it controls your perception and generates your world-view...which you call mistakenly call "reality".
By controling and manipulating that reality your Ego mind maintains control over you. If you like to, you can call these illusions and delusions generated by your Ego mind....ignorance.
I would perfer to call it "mistaken perception".

Quote:
This ignorance is the result of karmic seeds from our past


Not entirely.
These karmic seeds are like seeds in a garden. They will sprout unless the garden is kept weeded.
Weed your garden.

Quote:
If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here?


That's a common error.
What is actually said is that objects and events have no inherent self-referent independent exitance.
Time, space, and objects/events can only be measured or persevied in relationship to each other (dependent origination) .
That is what the statement that time, space, or objects/events have no inherent self-referent and independent existance.
Sometimes that mistakeny gets quoted with the inherent self-referent and independent part left out.
It then becomes mistakely understood as ," time, space, or objects/events have no existence".
That's the error.

Quote:
If I am already an enlightened being and have in my capacity the primordial mind, separated from enlightenment by ignorance, then where did this ignorance come from? Where did the karmic seeds come from?


The ignorance is from illusions/delusions generated by your Ego mind and a faulty world-view.
The karmic seeds from previous lives (rebirth).

Quote:
How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me, an enlightened being? And who is to say that upon liberation and enlightenment in this life or another life, ignorance and karmic seeds won't affect me again
?

"Enlightenment" is not a thing you get or a place you go.
It is a process, like growing vegetables in your garden.
Once again, keep your garden weeded,

All that is why it is so incrediby important that when reaching a certain stage in your understading...you take that leap of faith...geting outside your illusionary and delusionary perceptions....and in that moment of true understanding.....you see clearly and correctly outside of your controlling Ego mind.
Then you can understand, not merely with you mind and logic, but with your whole perception and that inherent"Buddha mind" you were born with as a sentient being.
:smile:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:06 pm 
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:smile:

Quote:
Buddha said so . . . and as far as I can tell, Buddha's the expert on enlightenment. My logic and guesswork fall short, so I default to the experts. But like I said, I have spent some time fretting over this, until I just gave up trying to figure it out. At a certain point you cultivate faith in the inconceivable, because you have to put your faith somewhere . . . and Buddhism has convinced me of the limitations of putting my faith in samsara. So what other alternative do I have? If liberation is not permanent, then Buddhism is completely useless, at least by its own standards.


For the answer to your question...it's like a monk who climbs to the top of a 100 foot pole.
He clings there in terror.
Where is he to go?

(Just let go and fly).

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Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:19 am 
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Based on my reading, there is a certain logic which states that we each are already enlightened except for the fact that ignorance hides this enlightenment from view. This ignorance is the result of karmic seeds from our past. Since, ultimately, there is no time or space, there is nothing actually separating this moment of ignorance from enlightenment other than the ignorance itself. (Please feel free to correct me where this needs adjustment.)

Yes, in reality, there is nothing separating this moment of ignorance and enlightenment. The problem is that reality is not valid for ignorant people who still cannot see reality. People who cannot see reality are always in relative world. Although they read in ultimate level no separation, their knowledge is only intelectual, not direct perception, which in this case we can say they still don't know what is ultimate truth.

Some questions based on this:

If there is no time or space, how come you and there and I am here? Does anyone [i]really
try to live as if there is no time/space?[/i]

You are there and I am here because of your label. If you can free yourself from this label, you will realize that I and you have no red thread that separate us. In this case we are not separated.

The water in Bali beach and in Miami beach, can be separated as two different thing based on intellectual level. However, although we separate it by our intelligent, they are one and connecting each others as 1 system, unseparable.

We simply separate ourself AS IF we are separate. There is no way we are REALLY separate. Only our label and our ego tell us we are separate like the water in Bali beach and Miami beach.

If I am already an enlightened being and have in my capacity the primordial mind, separated from enlightenment by ignorance, then where did this ignorance come from? Where did the karmic seeds come from? How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me, an enlightened being? And [i]who is to say that upon liberation and enlightenment in this life or another life, ignorance and karmic seeds won't affect me again?[/i]

Ignorance and karmic seeds will not touch enlightened beings.

Any reflections in the mirror do not know happiness, sorrow, greed, jealousy, etc. We are the one who touch that reflection and label it as happiness, sorrow, greed, anger, etc.

In case we can see whatever come in our mind as simply thoughts, simply reflections in the mirror since beginningless time, we won't be in samsara. It is this inability that make us in samsara.

It is our minds that confine us in samsara, nothing else.

Where does this ignorance come from? It comes from ourself, our inability to see thoughts as simple reflections in the mirror.

How come ignorance and karmic seeds affected me? It is because we unconsciously and ignorantly chosen to be affected.

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I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Just a thought... But we are all seeking enlightenment because we have realized that samsara is dukkah after who knows how long in this mess... Maybe all of us are the product of a single enlightened being deciding to take a break from nirvana, so it dreamt up the realms so it could experience the full range of conditioned experiences?

Maybe who cares?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:47 am 
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Here is a link to Nagarjuna's ' In Praise of Dharmadhatu' . A good teaching on the subject of clear light nature / ignorance.

http://www.bodhicitta.net/In%20Praise%20of%20the%20Dharmadhatu.htm


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:27 am 
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I am addicted to postin on hur :( :(

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:11 pm 
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is knowing that we are all ignorant, true enlightenment... that ultimately there is nothing we can know and that knowing one doesnt know is true knowledge. we certainly think we know about things but do we really? i am ignorant.

there is talk of the natural state, seeing own nature, seeing non duality, the 84,000 enlightenments, ordinary mind, awareness, consciousness, vivid awareness, so many different takes on enlightenment.
perhaps in the end we just dont know?

i just dont know!

is knowing ones ignorance enlightenment? is unknowing superior to knowing, inspite of them both being true nature. its only someone who knows enough about things who will come to this conclusion, that the more we know, actually the less we can be sure of.

knowing true nature is knowledge of all things, isnt this knowledge followed by an unknowing.

perhaps, but i just dont know!

am i ignorant and just how important is this ignorance.

best wishes, Tom.

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