Kill one to save many

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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:57 pm

"Refraining from acting" is an oxymoron. Not acting is acting. We are always, all the time, acting, always, all the time, choosing.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:08 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:The 8 noble part, cannot be taken literally. It is same with our laws, nobody is allowed to kill. But killing to protect oneself for example is not considered crime.
You'll find that all proponents of the Abrahamic religions say this about the first commndment too: Thou shalt not kill.

Ignorant and deluded humans are excellent at inventing new and interesting ways to perpetuate samsara

If we come back to our scenario, by not killing him, thousand of people will die. Second, by letting him killing so many people, we are actually letting him stay in the hell for very long period. Is this good? As a boddhisattva we have a vow to save all being with 'skillful means'. By killing him, not because of anger, but because of our compassion to save him from the hell and to save thousands beings, this action is wholesome.
And fundamentalists of all religions have said exactly the same thing as they have slaughtered countless infidels/unbelievers/witches/sinners/"bad guys"/etc... throughout human history. It's always for the dead persons good, its always out of a sense of righteousness and its always dead boring to listen to the justifications.

Doing nothing is also not wrong because it is already their karma. In case, we still cannot control our emotion, killing him with anger, will only do harm to ourself. However, in case we can be very mindful at that time and fully realize our motivation, our compassion will tell us to act properly.
Personaly I believe that it is better to kill your grasping to the ego than to kill another sentient being.
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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:53 pm

The extreme scenario is very important to be understood because this misunderstanding give an impression that Buddhist is passive religion. I cannot do any harm to you, so you can do harm to me.

Boddhisatva is the busiest person.

In the story of Siddharta kill the man in the ship, he himself at that moment is also only normal person like us. He doesn't have psychic power. If he has, he will already freeze him for example. He is Simply normal like us. The difference is at that moment he is like mother Theresa, full of compassion.

If we want to wait until we reach buddhahood, until we have physic power, until we can predict what we want to eat tonight, it will be too late and that person cannot be called boddhisattva. at that moment as well, that thousand brings have been killed as the killer will already in the hell for aeons aeons aeons.

Simply too late or scare to act due to the attachment to the face value 'we shouldn't kill because it is in the 8 noble truth'.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:22 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:The extreme scenario is very important to be understood because this misunderstanding give an impression that Buddhist is passive religion. I cannot do any harm to you, so you can do harm to me.

Boddhisatva is the busiest person.

In the story of Siddharta kill the man in the ship, he himself at that moment is also only normal person like us. He doesn't have psychic power. If he has, he will already freeze him for example. He is Simply normal like us. The difference is at that moment he is like mother Theresa, full of compassion.

If we want to wait until we reach buddhahood, until we have physic power, until we can predict what we want to eat tonight, it will be too late and that person cannot be called boddhisattva. at that moment as well, that thousand brings have been killed as the killer will already in the hell for aeons aeons aeons.

Simply too late or scare to act due to the attachment to the face value 'we shouldn't kill because it is in the 8 noble truth'.
:zzz: More boring justifications for murder! More delusions of grandeur!

And thus as a consequence of, and due to, our impetousness we are doomed to stumbly blindly through samsara forever.

In Greece we have a saying: "Those who rush hastily forward will always stumble and fall."
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:16 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You'll find that all proponents of the Abrahamic religions say this about the first commndment too: Thou shalt not kill.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:21-22, NASB
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:53 am

You guys have a truck load of leisure time on your hands, don't you? :lol:

I believe only a few can really answer that question and then perform accordingly. In extreme situations, most just freeze or run for their lives, Buddhists or otherwise.
I think it's more important to think deeply about the motivation behind whatever action you would decide to take than speculating about it. Whatever the action, and in a Mahayana forum this goes with the need to debate what supersedes a vow, mostly matters the intention that leads to it, even if the consequences don't match the hypothetical outcome we wished for.

If we can deeply feel compassion for both the killer and the victims, without discrimination, pondering that the killer will too suffer sooner or later and his actions are the result of adventitious obscurations, not intrinsic to his impermanent self, whatever action that probably we will never have to take, won't matter all that much. While training our aspiration concerning relative bodhicitta, if we can go to the point of really arising heartfelt compassion for both perpetrator and victims, this would be great. Gaining such insight and then maintaining it for as long as we can seems to count more then whatever action we speculate about. If we ever face such a situation, probably we will act in the most compassionate way available at that time or will, at least have better chances of dying in a better state. I think this is more useful than speculating about what one would do when facing such situation. Training our mind will go a long way in helping us make better choices, whatever the situation and its complexity, I guess. :smile:
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Heruka » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:30 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:You'll find that all proponents of the Abrahamic religions say this about the first commndment too: Thou shalt not kill.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:21-22, NASB



um... if in abrahamic tradition it says you are created in gods image, then surely killing a person is destroying gods image, and blashemy no?
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Heruka » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:37 am

DarwidHalim wrote: I cannot do any harm to you, so you can do harm to me.




correct, its better to take the lumps, and then ponder the hell you have sent that person whom such strong anger, and unhappy state of mind had risen in them against you, to react to you in such harmful way.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:42 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:You'll find that all proponents of the Abrahamic religions say this about the first commndment too: Thou shalt not kill.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:21-22, NASB


Then putting his creations into the hell and burn him forever, doesn't it the cruelest act?

In this case, God will definitely be the champion in torturing and killing beings.

Without doubts as well, God will be the Best deceiver ever. He said don't kill, don't torture, but he himself tortures beings in the hell. The worst thing is he will do it again and again and again and forever.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:49 am

According to Christianity God does not put people in hell, their actions cause them to go to hell AND God does not torture anybody in hell, the devil and his hoards of minions have that job.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby catmoon » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:50 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:According to Christianity God does not put people in hell, their actions cause them to go to hell AND God does not torture anybody in hell, the devil and his hoards of minions have that job.



Greg is quite correct, even if he does need to learn to spell "hordes". Nonetheless, it is my fervent wish to commemorate the momentous occaision of Greg being correct by ending this thread. Can we please call it dead? Pleeeez?
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:23 pm

yes but
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:29 am

catmoon wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:According to Christianity God does not put people in hell, their actions cause them to go to hell AND God does not torture anybody in hell, the devil and his hoards of minions have that job.



Greg is quite correct, even if he does need to learn to spell "hordes". Nonetheless, it is my fervent wish to commemorate the momentous occaision of Greg being correct by ending this thread. Can we please call it dead? Pleeeez?
How'd yah spel that agin? Whored? :evil:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:45 am

...Buddhist texts state that only a buddha's omniscient mind can penetrate the subtlest aspects of the workings of karma, and know at the most microscopic level which specific causes and conditions give rise to which specific consequences. At our level, we can only recognise that an intimate relationship exists between the external elements of the material world and the internal elements of our mental world; and, based on that, we can learn to detect varying levels of subtlety within our mental and emotional experiences.
Lighting the Way by the Dalai Lama, translated by Geshe Thupten Jinpa, published by Snow Lion Publications.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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