Kill one to save many

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Kill one to save many

Postby edearl » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:47 pm

I shall posit several scenarios, and ask the same question for each, specifically is it OK to kill in this scenario.

Basic Scenario: someone is about to explode a bomb in a crowd.

1) The bomber will kill himself/herself and other people.
1a) You can jump on the bomber, sacrificing your life and prevent anyone except the bomber and yourself from being killed.
1b) You can push the bomber out of a window 30 stories high, saving yourself and others, but killing the bomber.

2) The bomber will not kill himself/herself, only other people.
2a) You can push the bomber out a 30 story window, killing him but saving everyone else.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby kirtu » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:13 pm

It's never ok to kill. But there may be no good alternative choices. You are positing Shakyamuni Buddha's choice as a ferryman in a previous lifetime.

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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Epistemes » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:39 pm

You know what would make this scenario more interesting? If the bomber was the jerk brother-in-law that you knew beat your sister senseless every night...or some variation on such contempt. Then, not only could you react out of self-defense and valor but also relish the death.

Of course, I'm thinking like a conceitedly.

If you had the skills, you could go Jet Li on the bomber and knock him senseless, thus saving all parties involved. :sage:
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby edearl » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:48 pm

kirtu wrote:It's never ok to kill. But there may be no good alternative choices. You are positing Shakyamuni Buddha's choice as a ferryman in a previous lifetime.

Kirt


Thanks, I found that he killed the one who intended to murder the 500, because he did not want the man to accumulate bad karma.

My assumption was that by not killing the bomber, I would be complacent for allowing many innocent people to die, which would accumulate greater bad karma than killing only one.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby edearl » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:52 pm

Epistemes wrote:...
If you had the skills, you could go Jet Li on the bomber and knock him senseless, thus saving all parties involved. :sage:


True, but if the bomber had a dead-man's switch, the bomb would explode if he was knocked out.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby LastLegend » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:55 am

When the mind is pure, actions therefore are also pure.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby edearl » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:21 pm

LastLegend wrote:When the mind is pure, actions therefore are also pure.


As an unenlightened person and not omnipotent, I do the best I can to keep my mind pure. Unfortunately some of my actions lead to unintended consequences that cause suffering in others, and I feel responsible. What can I do?
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby catmoon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:28 pm

As an unenlightened person and not omnipotent, there is only one thing you can do. If you fix the "unenlightened" part, you will be able to untangle the threads of karma and act in a truly beneficial manner, without guesswork. Omnipotence is something you can worry about later.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby edearl » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:01 pm

catmoon wrote:As an unenlightened person and not omnipotent, there is only one thing you can do. If you fix the "unenlightened" part, you will be able to untangle the threads of karma and act in a truly beneficial manner, without guesswork. Omnipotence is something you can worry about later.


:thanks:
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby AlexanderS » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:30 pm

I would kill the bomber instantly.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby ground » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:34 pm

Stop accumulating the karma of killing. You are just harming yourself.


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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:50 pm

I would kill the bomber instantly.
I would kill myself instantly thus saving the bomber the bad karma vipakka of killing me as well!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby AlexanderS » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
I would kill the bomber instantly.
I would kill myself instantly thus saving the bomber the bad karma vipakka of killing me as well!
:namaste:


But the bomber would still kill the 30 people then? So you'd just have comitted suicide really.

Caring for the welfare and safety of others is more important than caring for your own karma
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:12 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
I would kill the bomber instantly.
I would kill myself instantly thus saving the bomber the bad karma vipakka of killing me as well!
:namaste:


But the bomber would still kill the 30 people then? So you'd just have comitted suicide really.
Have you ever killed anybody in your life? What makes you think you would be capable of killing the bomber? I imagine that, more than likely, you would just run off and save your own ass. Like just about all of us here. Less hypotheticals, more reality is what I reckon!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby LastLegend » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:13 pm

Just kill yourself in front of the bomber to shock him.
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:15 pm

Kill everybody in the crowd, and yourself, leaving just the bomber alive?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby LastLegend » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:18 pm

Yes sir
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby AlexanderS » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:21 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
I would kill the bomber instantly.
I would kill myself instantly thus saving the bomber the bad karma vipakka of killing me as well!
:namaste:


I have fortunately never killed anyone. However since we are talking about a hypothecital scenario, then yes I would kill bomber if I knew he was about to kill lots of innocent people. I think if people are not willing to sacrifice their own skin for the sake of others then who are they to talk about selflessness?
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:24 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
I would kill the bomber instantly.
I would kill myself instantly thus saving the bomber the bad karma vipakka of killing me as well!
:namaste:


I have fortunately never killed anyone. However since we are talking about a hypothecital scenario, then yes I would kill bomber if I knew he was about to kill lots of innocent people. I think if people are not willing to sacrifice their own skin for the sake of others then who are they to talk about selflessness?
Conjecture is no replacement for reality.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kill one to save many

Postby AlexanderS » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:26 pm

Yes, so I would assume that from your knowledge on the subject you have already been through this scenario in real life?
So you have in fact killed yourself to save a murderer the bad karma associated with murdering and have reincarnated yourself to tell the tale?
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