Intelligent design

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Re: Intelligent design

Postby Jikan » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:13 pm

Keith is correct.

And it is this business on the edge of correlation not equating causation that makes the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster so diabolically funny. Science jokes are usually not the stuff of belly-laughter, but this one works. For instance, the Pastafarians observe that as the numbers of pirates on the high seas have declined, but ocean temperatures are rising, the only explanation is that reducing piracy has caused global warming. Solution: everyone talk like a pirate to end climate change (and take Fridays off).

Seriously, everyone on the Intelligent Design front gets licked and good. Including the Ever-Evolving Integrated Consciousness crowd (of whom more here: http://www.integralworld.net/meyerhoff-ba-toc.html )

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Re: Intelligent design

Postby edearl » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:09 pm

Time for me to retire from this discussion. I have contemplated these issues many many times, for many years. The result of my rational thinking was to become agnostic; which led to exile from my family. Thus, it is all too easy for me to become emotionally involved and shout.

Too often, good intentions lead to wrong actions. I pray everyone makes the world better for all.

Time to meditate.

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Re: Intelligent design

Postby Tilopa » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:08 pm

catmoon wrote:
Tilopa wrote:That just proves dependent arising doesn't it?


It does? Dependent arisings can be probable or improbable. I don't think anything is proven here. Not yet, anyhow. By all means elucidate.


Without the appropriate causes and conditions corresponding results cannot arise so if it's true that a tiny variation in prevailing conditions would have prevented the formation of life on Earth then wouldn't that fact support the logic of dependent arising?
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Re: Intelligent design

Postby Matt J » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:43 pm

I don't see the connection. What does the one thing have to do with the other?

Epistemes wrote:If everything is dependently originated, then what about intelligent design? Science has documented that if certain conditions on Earth had been variable by .00000000000000000000000001%, life on Earth wouldn't have been possible.
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If only there is no picking or choosing
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Re: Intelligent design

Postby catmoon » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:24 am

Tilopa wrote:
catmoon wrote:
Tilopa wrote:That just proves dependent arising doesn't it?


It does? Dependent arisings can be probable or improbable. I don't think anything is proven here. Not yet, anyhow. By all means elucidate.


Without the appropriate causes and conditions corresponding results cannot arise so if it's true that a tiny variation in prevailing conditions would have prevented the formation of life on Earth then wouldn't that fact support the logic of dependent arising?



Sort of, i guess. But I don't see that it supports DO any more than other examples with high probability. Dropping an apple on your foot supports DO just as strongly, maybe even more so.
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Re: Intelligent design

Postby kirtu » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:37 am

Epistemes wrote:
kirtu wrote:Had conditions been different than life would likely have still evolved. But it may not have become technologically adaptive (this is the reason that we aren't dinosaurs).


In which case, the Six Realms of Existence would have been conceived as Volcano Hell, Hungry Herbivores, Small Mammals, Dinosaurs, Demi-Dinosaurs, and T. Rex.

And all Dinosaurs would travel to Nepal to seek refuge in the Great Buddha Dino

if there was a Six Realms of Existence of a Great Buddha Dino at all.


Technological dinosaurs from Earth were explored in an episode of Star Trek Voyager although without Buddhism.

Practically everywhere we look on Earth we find life (there is one apparently lifeless spot in a high desert in Peru). In fact we find multiple life systems: most life that we know of is dependant upon solar energy, but in fact in terms of biomass most life on Earth may be thermal rock dependant (this became known in the 90's). Then we have thermal vents in the oceans with an amazing diversity of unique multicellular animals, most famously tube worms (these were discovered in the late 70's or so). I remember hearing about another life system found in nature based on chemical reactions in salt pools or something like that.

We will unquestionably find fossilized life on Mars (of course there is still a possibility that we could be Martians). We may find life on Venus esp. in high mountain pools: we do find life on Earth under not dissimilar temperatures and pressures although it is not multicellular and not subject to a constant rain of sulphuric acid or a probable reshaping of the surface of Venus every 500 million years or so (if this is actually true then life is unlikely there but if not then sulphuric acid isn't a terrible thing to live with). However we should expect to find life on Titan because there is sufficient energy for slow acting biological processes. Similarly on Europa (Jovan moon) and Enceladus (Saturian moon) I would expect us to find aquatic life similar to what we see in the oceans here. So basically anywhere that life could possibly exist in the solar system I'm certain we will find life either present or in fossilized form. But it could take several hundred years to really get the data either way. If we do find this, then we know that we should find similar conditions throughout the galaxy and in fact throughout the universe although there could be vast deserts (produced by gamma ray bursts at least).

From a Buddhist POV we DO have a kind of "intelligent" designer. This is karma. And since karma is a result of intentionality, all sentient beings collectively are the intelligent part. Therefore ignorance is actually the "intelligent" impetus. So we have collectively played a bad joke on each other.

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Re: Intelligent design

Postby Kyosan » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:27 pm

I think that evolution is a type of "Intelligent design". First simple species which are more likely to form appear. Latter they evolve into more complex species, which are adapted to the environment, since they are living there. The intelligence is in the natural selection.
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