Renunciation Impossible?

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Re: Renunciation not Impossible

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:10 pm

Jikan wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Your definition of renunciation is still incorrect.


I'm trying to follow your reasoning here but something's missing. Would you please explain in a bit more detail how you understand renunciation, and on what basis you disagree with Namdrol's distinction between renunciation and the path of renunciation?


Hi Jikan,

No, because it's all a bit superficial and intellectual. I regret jumping into such a pointless debate. Perhaps we should just follow the instructions of our Spiritual Guides instead of getting tangled in each others words :)
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Re: Renunciation not Impossible

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:46 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
No, because it's all a bit superficial and intellectual.


The whole title of this thread is wrong -- this thread was created by Huseng who split the thread off from another thread.

I never said that "renunciation" per se was impossible. The path of abandoning or renouncing sense objects what I identified as impossible in this day and age, based on many citations one can find, particularly in the tantras of Heruka and statements by Mahasiddhas such as Saraha.

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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:So even here, Vajrayāna remain unique in asserting that one can attain full awakening 11 bhumi + in a single lifetime, soup to nuts.


In your experience have you met a Vajrayāna practitioner who demonstrated that this was possible?
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Re: Renunciation not Impossible

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
No, because it's all a bit superficial and intellectual.


The whole title of this thread is wrong -- this thread was created by Huseng who split the thread off from another thread.


I wasn't the one who 'dun it.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:24 am

Huseng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:So even here, Vajrayāna remain unique in asserting that one can attain full awakening 11 bhumi + in a single lifetime, soup to nuts.


In your experience have you met a Vajrayāna practitioner who demonstrated that this was possible?



Yes, or so I believe.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Jnana » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:43 am

Adamantine wrote:However, if we look at the gist of them we will find that many of the predictions made hundreds of years ago have actually come to pass.

This is what Nostradamus' followers say about his predictions too. Prophesy is similar to many other things: ppl see what they want to see.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Jnana » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:52 am

Namdrol wrote:
Jnana wrote:Sounds to me like you prefer a Tibetocentric bias. ;)


Well, truthfully, only the Tibeans endeavored to preserve the successive layers of North Indian Buddhism in some semblance of how they may actually have been taught.

Agreed. As taught in the 11th-13th centuries when tantric systems were becoming standardized and even mainstream (to the extent that this was possible).

What is interesting (insofar as it doesn't conform to the narrative of tantric supersessionism), is that vajrayāna symbolism and lineages never really succeeded in capturing the imagination of Chinese Buddhists, and even in South Asia, where tantric Buddhism managed to co-exist with exoteric Buddhism in Sri Lanka for at least a few centuries, it was exoteric Buddhism which eventually won the day.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Astus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:58 am

topic split: Buddhahood in Chan
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:26 pm

Jnana wrote:What is interesting (insofar as it doesn't conform to the narrative of tantric supersessionism), is that vajrayāna symbolism and lineages never really succeeded in capturing the imagination of Chinese Buddhists, and even in South Asia, where tantric Buddhism managed to co-exist with exoteric Buddhism in Sri Lanka for at least a few centuries, it was exoteric Buddhism which eventually won the day.


Mantrayāna was introduced in the 8th century into China and seems to have become somewhat popular, perhaps because of the mysterious theatrical appeal of it to the common people, but it was effectively doomed in 845 when Wuzong crushed all Buddhist institutions. Any sort of urban Buddhism with state sponsorship received a deep, and sometimes fatal, blow.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Astus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:54 pm

Huseng wrote:Mantrayāna was introduced in the 8th century into China and seems to have become somewhat popular, perhaps because of the mysterious theatrical appeal of it to the common people, but it was effectively doomed in 845 when Wuzong crushed all Buddhist institutions. Any sort of urban Buddhism with state sponsorship received a deep, and sometimes fatal, blow.


That is a bit of an exaggeration. Vajrayana was available in China in later ages too, including translation of tantras, and enjoyed state sponsorship under the Mongols and Manchus. But I think it's that since the Taoists already satisfied those who were looking for yogic and magical practices, there was little need for a new one.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Jnana » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:02 pm

Astus wrote:That is a bit of an exaggeration. Vajrayana was available in China in later ages too, including translation of tantras, and enjoyed state sponsorship under the Mongols and Manchus. But I think it's that since the Taoists already satisfied those who were looking for yogic and magical practices, there was little need for a new one.

Indeed. Even with political patronage and the presence of Indian tantrikas in China, Vajrayāna was never able to become dominant there as in Tibet and Mongolia.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:15 pm

Astus wrote:That is a bit of an exaggeration. Vajrayana was available in China in later ages too, including translation of tantras, and enjoyed state sponsorship under the Mongols and Manchus. But I think it's that since the Taoists already satisfied those who were looking for yogic and magical practices, there was little need for a new one.


However, none of that was really part of Han/Chinese Buddhism 漢傳.

Tibetan Vajrayāna in China was for Mongol and later Machurian aristocracy.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Astus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:19 pm

Huseng wrote:However, none of that was really part of Han/Chinese Buddhism 漢傳.
Tibetan Vajrayāna in China was for Mongol and later Machurian aristocracy.


Primarily, yes. But that doesn't mean monks - especially close to the higher circles - didn't know about it. For instance, Hanshan Deqing did practice some Vajrayana techniques.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:30 pm

Astus wrote:
Huseng wrote:However, none of that was really part of Han/Chinese Buddhism 漢傳.
Tibetan Vajrayāna in China was for Mongol and later Machurian aristocracy.


Primarily, yes. But that doesn't mean monks - especially close to the higher circles - didn't know about it. For instance, Hanshan Deqing did practice some Vajrayana techniques.


Whatever influence there might have been I have never noticed it either in terms of text or in modern Chinese Buddhism.
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Re: Renunciation Impossible?

Postby Astus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:27 pm

Huseng wrote:Whatever influence there might have been I have never noticed it either in terms of text or in modern Chinese Buddhism.


I don't know much about Chinese ritual practices, but you may have noticed the large number of dharanis present in monks' daily rituals and their general popularity. There are also rites like "Liberating the Flaming-Mouths" (fang yankou 放焰口) based on a Tantric text by Amoghavajra, and the grand ceremony of "Liberation Rite of Water and Land" (shuiliu fahui 水陸法會).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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