rebirth question from a beginner

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Re: rebirth question from a beginner

Postby AdmiralJim » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:38 pm

I think it is possible for rebirth to be possible because of the simple fact that when you die the atoms have nowhere to go
I don't know where we are going but it will be nice when we get there
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Re: rebirth question from a beginner

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:31 am

Paul wrote:...Nagasena was a theravadin monk...
Really? How do you know this? If you mean Theravadrin in contrast to Sarvastivadin (or some other early Buddhist school) I don't know if this can be established. If you mean Theravadrin as opposed to Mahayana, then I think you may find that the theoretical (the artifice of) "splitting" of Buddhism into two Yana (Vajrayana was nowhere near conception yet, Garab Dorje was born around 55AD and Padmasambhava did not bring the teachings to Tibet until around 760AD) took place after the existence of Nagasena (apparently the earliest mention of the Yana was around 100BC-100AD, some 50 -150 years after Nagasenas death) so at that point there was officially no Yana split. And anyway, the actions and teachings of character/individual Nagasena may basically have been "borrowed" by the Theravadrin school to support/advertise their teachings. So what is the basis for this statement?

... and they don't believe in a state between lives - it's straight into the next existence, although there is evidence in the pali canon of Buddha talking about such a thing.
According to Theravadra Abhidhamma there is a moment of consciousness between the two lives called rebirth linking consciousness, since it belongs neither to the previous nor to the following life it is safe to assume that it is a bardo, or "intermediate", state of consciousness. It does not last as long as the Bardo state of the Bardo Thodol but, really, the of passing/measurement of time is so relative when consciousness splits from physical form that...

As an aside, if you meant Theravadrin as opposed to the other Yana it seems that the concept of an intermediate state existed in many of the "Hinayana" schools:
From the records of early Buddhist schools, it appears that at least six different groups accepted the notion of an intermediate existence (antarābhava), namely, the Sarvāstivāda, Darṣṭāntika, Vātsīputrīyas, Saṃmitīya, Pūrvaśaila and late Mahīśāsaka. The first four of these are closely related schools. Opposing them were the Mahāsaṃghika, Mahīśāsaka, Theravāda, Vibhajyavāda and the Śāriputra Abhidharma (possibly Dharmagupta) (Bareau 1955: 291).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo

AdmiralJim wrote:I think it is possible for rebirth to be possible because of the simple fact that when you die the atoms have nowhere to go
Hmmmm... Now all you have to do is establish that consciousness resides in atoms because (apparently) it is the mind stream that is reborn in a new physical form and not the physical form (which is composed of atoms) that is being reborn.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: rebirth question from a beginner

Postby AdmiralJim » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:14 pm

Hmmmm... Now all you have to do is establish that consciousness resides in atoms because (apparently) it is the mind stream that is reborn in a new physical form and not the physical form (which is composed of atoms) that is being reborn

I can't really prove that consciouness resides in atoms, just like I can't really point out where my mind is, I can only allude to the fact I have a mind because I am aware. Is my mind in my brain etc it leads into a slippery slope of metaphysics and you only need to read some ancient greek philosophy and realise that todays philosophers are still chewing the same fat so to speak to realise what a pointless waste of time all that is!
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Re: rebirth question from a beginner

Postby AlexanderS » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:40 pm

What are atoms composed of?
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Re: rebirth question from a beginner

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:16 pm

Parts of atoms and so on ad infinitum, therefore nothing. Or more accurately, therefore interpretations.
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Re: rebirth question from a beginner

Postby AdmiralJim » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:07 am

What are atoms composed of?
This is the realm of quantum physists, what can be objectively seen is that atoms are composed of a neutron/proton core and electrons which revolve around this core. although if you put atoms into size perspective they are mostly composed of space and if you add in einstein's theorys they are a form of strange energy, this is why breakdown of radioactive substances can be used to heat water - producing nuclear electricity. experts in quantum physics have been able to see that even the protons/electrons and neutrons themselves are made up of smaller particles which bizarrely sometimes exist and then sometimes they don't exist, which i find interesting - it causes a huge dilemma for classicaly trained physicists because how can something that flashes in and out of existence produce the world we see around us and they are many years away from find a solution to this question - hence the building of the hadron collider in europe although i doubt that this will produce a solution anytime soon - it will probably just cause more questions.
quantum physicists are also beginning to turn their mind to the question - what is it that differentiates us from other lumps of atoms that enable us to be sentient because if thought about logically sentience shouldn't be possible - yet here we sit! I look forward with relish to what these scientists find because I think the dharma may prove quantum physics correct but quantum physics will not prove the dharma. if you think about it i find it amazing that the dharma talks about emptiness etc and then we find out we are composed mostly of space and energy which sometimes doesn't exist and sometimes exists :rolling:
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Re: rebirth question from a beginner

Postby KevinSolway » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:38 am

Why follow the path?


Why would you want to make the world a better place?

The question is the same.
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