Buddhism & Guns?

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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:36 pm

"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:52 pm

I've found this thread interesting to say the least.
I also live in a very rural area. I do own a rifle, but that is for protection of our cattle herds calves from cyots.

Around here if you're going to pull a gun out, you best be prepared to use it. And never forget the other person may have one as well. Now there's a point that I don't remember being brought up, though it may have and I don't remember.

As to the OP, at her size a shotgun would be quite a bit to handle. The kick is a whammy for sure.
There are many other ways to defend ones self from an attack. As DN stated martial arts will teach you self defense and a way to protect yourself without causing a fatality. Just an opinion.

Kindest wishes, Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Josef » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:10 pm

I enjoy going to the range to shoot targets. It's actually an interesting exercise in trying to stay present in loud and exciting circumstances.
I might go today as a matter of fact.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:15 pm

Women with guns? !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4CT6EJcJ0Y

I've been shot at twice. I think they missed. Not much fun - one was Indian 'police' furious ay not getting bribed so he shot at the car, the other was shooting pheasants where I walk the dog along the lanes here in the UK. If I had a gun and shot either of them I think I may have been in some deeep poo.

Oh - I know two UK policemen who are 'firearms trained' - one shot his foot (really) and the other just missed a colleague in practice.

Add a dose of adrenaline and .............. anyone could get shot, maybe even the target.

If you want to defend yourself, learn unarmed combat and how to do the least harm it takes to get the job done. A good knife attacker will still cut you up. I can't see even a very poor shot with a pistol who is close to you allowing you time shoot back. Just a view. ;)
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:19 pm

Nangwa wrote:I enjoy going to the range to shoot targets. It's actually an interesting exercise in trying to stay present in loud and exciting circumstances.
I might go today as a matter of fact.
Better wear your slipad just in case you wet yourself from all the excitement! Anyway, I didn't know they made dwarf sized handguns. :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Josef » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:29 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I enjoy going to the range to shoot targets. It's actually an interesting exercise in trying to stay present in loud and exciting circumstances.
I might go today as a matter of fact.
Better wear your slipad just in case you wet yourself from all the excitement! Anyway, I didn't know they made dwarf sized handguns. :tongue:

:smile:
You would be surprised by what they make for us.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Nemo » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:03 pm

The non lethal suggestion here are pretty useless. I've gone up against martial artists, tear gas and pepper spray. Martial arts without size is just going to make me pick you up and pound you against a wall till you stop moving. Most martial artists, even the teachers, have never even been in a real fight. Unless you plan on sparring at least once a week don't waste your time. Once I physically lift you off the ground all your training is useless. Tear gas/pepper spray is annoying. I would get gassed every year in the Army. Other than the initial shock value it is merely painful and makes it difficult to see. It would make a hardened attacker angry. These are all bad ideas.

Get or gun or don't. These other suggestions would not stop a real attacker. Run away and call the cops. A cellphone is the best non lethal weapon you can have.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:32 pm

very good points Nemo, especially about the sparing.
Without fighting in a real situation, one wouldn't know what to do.
The 1 reason I don't suggest a gun is most people won't pull the trigger.
Many say "if it came to it, I think I could" well thinking is not a good thing in a situation like that.
One must be willing to seriously harm or kill another if they wish to pull out a gun.
Either that or have it taken away and used on them, which I have known to happen. I also live in an area where the law is "we'll get there when/if we can". So situations do get out of hand regularly.

Kindest wishes, Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Some stats, not all sources are provided but it's easy enough to find them.
There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000. The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides, with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.
Shooting the thug that dwells within!
A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, a criminal assault or homicide, or an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
Journal of Trauma, 1998
Oooops wrong thug!
Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders. Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.
What? No thugs with guns?
A 1997 survey of more than 18,000 prison inmates found that among those serving time for a violent crime, "30% of State offenders and 35% of Federal offenders carried a firearm when committing the crime."
Okay, some thugs with guns.
Nearly one-third of all women murdered in the United States in recent years were murdered by a current or former intimate partner. In 2000, 1,247 women, more than three a day, were killed by their intimate partners. Of females killed with a firearm, almost two-thirds were killed by their intimate partners.
My wife is a thug (shoot her!).
In the five years to 2007, 292 people died as the result of an assault. This was more than the 284 people who died from that cause in the five-year period 1998–2002, but considerably fewer than the 356 people who died from an assault in 1988–1992 ... Five-year average annual assault death rates for the period 2003–2007 were highest among adults aged 25–44 years (2.1 deaths per 100,000), followed by youth aged 15–24 years (1.9 per 100,000) and those aged 45–64 years (1.2 per 100,000). Children under 15 years and older people aged 65 years and over had the lowest rate (each 0.8 deaths per 100,000).
Oh, it looks like the thugs aren't gonna kill me after all, so what am I gonna do with this 0.45?
6.8% of mortalities worldwide are caused by unintentional injury, 2.84% by intentional injury (including war).
So shooting the thug by mistake has a higher chance of causing death than getting shot at by a homicidal maniac???
:shrug:


Thank you for the useless stats. You're doing a good job avoiding my question.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:21 pm

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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:31 pm

Nemo wrote:The non lethal suggestion here are pretty useless. I've gone up against martial artists, tear gas and pepper spray. Martial arts without size is just going to make me pick you up and pound you against a wall till you stop moving. Most martial artists, even the teachers, have never even been in a real fight. Unless you plan on sparring at least once a week don't waste your time. Once I physically lift you off the ground all your training is useless.
Hogwash my dear Nemo. There are martial arts and then there are marital arts! The first martial art I learned was a combat jiu-jitsu system. What does this mean? That all the emphasis was on really quick, effective, underhanded and ungentlemanly strikes to vital points. This means: groin strikes, headbutts, throat strikes, eye gouges and all that other nasty stuff that works incredibly well against attackers, regardless of their size, weight and strength. My favorite sparring partner was a 130kg (286 pounds) 2 metre tall death machine. Needless to say he wasn't quick enough to avoid the snap kick to the goolies. The worst ones to spar with were the women we had in the group, they were wild!!! You see in a self defence situation both the attacker and the defender are wired. Now for the defender you have to deal with the habit of "freezing from fear", after that it's incredible what a small, skinny, frail woman can pull off (or gouge out).

Yes the techniques were tried and tested in the "real" world. That's what we were learning them for anyway.
:namaste:
PS
Get or gun or don't. These other suggestions would not stop a real attacker. Run away and call the cops. A cellphone is the best non lethal weapon you can have.
This is of course the best advice. I always tell my students that the best martial art is not karate but trehate (τρεχάτε, it's Greek for "run like hell").
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:55 pm

Nemo wrote:The non lethal suggestion here are pretty useless. I've gone up against martial artists, tear gas and pepper spray. Martial arts without size is just going to make me pick you up and pound you against a wall till you stop moving. Most martial artists, even the teachers, have never even been in a real fight. Unless you plan on sparring at least once a week don't waste your time. Once I physically lift you off the ground all your training is useless. Tear gas/pepper spray is annoying. I would get gassed every year in the Army. Other than the initial shock value it is merely painful and makes it difficult to see. It would make a hardened attacker angry. These are all bad ideas.

Get or gun or don't. These other suggestions would not stop a real attacker. Run away and call the cops. A cellphone is the best non lethal weapon you can have.


'Most' martial arts instructors? Methinks you have not a shred of evidence for that.


OMG I'm terrified! You must be a ......................Ninja! I see a lot of them on Bullshido! LOL :)

If you pick up my 101 Kg while I'm busting your face or breaking your bones it would be classed as superhuman, since up to 5 police are sometimes needed to restrain one unskilled bozo high on drugs and feeling no pain, even the small ones. I would respecfully note that size only matters between people of equal skill, and it can actually hamper you in close encounters of the bar kind.

Oh, and in a 'real' fight I'd disable someone's legs and eyes to stop an attack anytime - I've never ever seen a street fight won by picking up someone who may have a concealed weapon or actually know how and where to strike you, including ripping your eyes out - and small guys can do this just as well.

The 'forces' card doesn't wash with me as we used to have loads of squaddies in town and I've also trained with many. Funny, they get beaten up too. Didn't see one try to lift the lads from the local mines, or the gypsy bare-knuckle guys. However, I've seen doorment pick up fighting drunk women and end up a mass of cuts and bruises as they didn't have restraint skills and also did not reckon on other girls and the boyfriends joining in.

The last time I was out past my normal bed-time, in a 'quiet' local city of culture, the local naughty teen kids had meat cleavers and machettes concealed, which were flashed about when no police were around. They used to have baseball bats and rounders bats, but discovered edged weapons work better. Meanwhile,the UK is full of grannies handing in ther bread knives in police knife 'amnesties', while police get all worked up about anyone carrying a tiny lock knife. Mad. LOL :)

You think that, in the midst of an obesity epidemic, people can run? Not many and not far. Running also tends to isolate someone and make the group kicking they receive a much longer affair.

Most 'thugs' (isn't that a racist slur against the thuggees of India?) favour a weapon but by all means try and pick them up whilst their mates slash you, or do what happened (back to topic) locally and get shot. More and more guns are available, many hired for each gang killing or just for the weekend.

I used to train doormen in self defence and restraint and knife defence and guess what - I have never started a fight either, but I have ended a few. Now I'm in my late 50's I am slower but have experience to compensate. Someone my age may also have potential weapons such as a walking stick and 'pen' (kubotan) as everyday objects which may be useful, especially if trained in sword arts and stick fighting.

I do agree, however, that most MA training is stylised and there is little control over the quality of teachers. However, to take one example, if you train well for maybe 7 years or so, building up to random attacks with a live (sharp) 11 inch tanto, you will fare better against other similar edged weapons you meet and maybe be lucky and just get badly cut. However, since such training also sometimes ends up with badly cut people, it tends to be a private exercise with no insurance, which is a pity.

So, posturing egos aside, I favour the 'least harm' application of defence as it does fit in with Buddhist principles, which do not insist on you being slaughtered, but teach compassion, which I interpret as trying to ensure least harm to all, including the attacker.

So, given the Indiana Jones scenario - faced with a skilled swordsman and no escape, do you shoot him?
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Jikan » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:39 pm

Nangwa wrote:I enjoy going to the range to shoot targets. It's actually an interesting exercise in trying to stay present in loud and exciting circumstances.
I might go today as a matter of fact.


Well, the Shambhala people do kyudo, which, though interesting, always seemed a bit constipated to me. I think it's a more challenging exercise to stay present in *BORING* and loud circumstances (such as a rifle range or a dive bar).
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Josef » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:58 pm

Jikan wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I enjoy going to the range to shoot targets. It's actually an interesting exercise in trying to stay present in loud and exciting circumstances.
I might go today as a matter of fact.


Well, the Shambhala people do kyudo, which, though interesting, always seemed a bit constipated to me. I think it's a more challenging exercise to stay present in *BORING* and loud circumstances (such as a rifle range or a dive bar).


Kyudo is fun but I prefer the shooting range and the dive bar add an element of risk and chaos.
More my style.
I like testing myself through new experiences and repeating them to see how I handle them. I just started going to the shooting range for this very purpose and have found the experience to be both enjoyable and rewarding.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Nemo » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:40 pm

I did do martial arts for a few years with a Korean Special Forces Officer. Officially he was 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do, but all the best stuff he saved for his government students. He taught our old anti terror squad pre 9/11.

The original poster was female and probably older. Martial arts is just bad advice for her. Why waste all that time, energy and strain on your joints for something you'll probably never use? A cell phone, running away(do some cardio) and perhaps a 20 gauge or a light caliber hand gun are what I would recommend. Once the neighbors see you outside shooting a few times word will get around. Personally I don't keep guns in the house. I think they are bad luck.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:56 pm

Nemo wrote:I did do martial arts for a few years with a Korean Special Forces Officer. Officially he was 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do, but all the best stuff he saved for his government students. He taught our old anti terror squad pre 9/11.

The original poster was female and probably older. Martial arts is just bad advice for her. Why waste all that time, energy and strain on your joints for something you'll probably never use? A cell phone, running away(do some cardio) and perhaps a 20 gauge or a light caliber hand gun are what I would recommend. Once the neighbors see you outside shooting a few times word will get around. Personally I don't keep guns in the house. I think they are bad luck.


There are many who claim high Dan grades, but a 9th Dan would be an exceptional Master, probably with a worldwide reputation.

TKD is great if you are ever attacked by a balsa wood plank on horseback. LOL :)

If your neighbours see you outside shooting a few times, my guess is that word will get around all right - police tend to regard it as a good reason to shoot you, which is always shoot to kill.

His 'best stuff' was even better that his 9th Dan?

Sorry, this is McDojo bragging stuff.

Buddhism is not about finding the best way to kill, but about using the best method not to do so.

Shoot at a person and you know you may kill. Learn an effective fighting art and in many threatening situations you will have a response which is non-lethal. If all you have is a gun, then as you have no fighting skills, are you going to shoot a person who clenches a fist and throws a punch? If not, the gun is useless as a defence against an unarmed attacker who could kill you.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Nemo » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:33 pm

Must be great to know so much. I live in Canada and he is a member of the WTF/Kukkiwon. He is 9th Dan and still teaches.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:06 am

If your neighbours see you outside shooting a few times, my guess is that word will get around all right - police tend to regard it as a good reason to shoot you, which is always shoot to kill.


Umm she lives in a cottage in the mountains. The road the OP lives on the police won't patrol, and her neighbors are surprised she doesn't own a gun and tell her to get one. Check the first few pages of the thread, it's all there.
She does have reason to fear for her saftey.

I agree Nemo, the word would get around and then possibly another drunk may not bust in her door.


Kindest wishes, Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Nighthawk » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:52 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Nemo wrote:The non lethal suggestion here are pretty useless. I've gone up against martial artists, tear gas and pepper spray. Martial arts without size is just going to make me pick you up and pound you against a wall till you stop moving. Most martial artists, even the teachers, have never even been in a real fight. Unless you plan on sparring at least once a week don't waste your time. Once I physically lift you off the ground all your training is useless.
Hogwash my dear Nemo. There are martial arts and then there are marital arts! The first martial art I learned was a combat jiu-jitsu system. What does this mean? That all the emphasis was on really quick, effective, underhanded and ungentlemanly strikes to vital points. This means: groin strikes, headbutts, throat strikes, eye gouges and all that other nasty stuff that works incredibly well against attackers, regardless of their size, weight and strength. My favorite sparring partner was a 130kg (286 pounds) 2 metre tall death machine. Needless to say he wasn't quick enough to avoid the snap kick to the goolies. The worst ones to spar with were the women we had in the group, they were wild!!! You see in a self defence situation both the attacker and the defender are wired. Now for the defender you have to deal with the habit of "freezing from fear", after that it's incredible what a small, skinny, frail woman can pull off (or gouge out).


Unfortunately, not everyone can be a Jackie Chan. Your advice is hilarious.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:44 am

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