Buddhism & Guns?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sönam » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:55 pm

There is always an inter-action between your acts, and what is "acted on you" ... therefore if you buy a gun you strongly multiply the eventuality to be brought into a situation where you will use that gun ... it works so, acting in a direction and you solidify events in that direction.
You are today in a situation where you fear something bad happening, therefore you can take two different directions, accelerate the process buying a gun or trying to decelerate it.
I would'nt buy a gun, I would not considere it as a solution ... also I don not have your solution but it exists many other ways to solve your fear.
It's may ba simply that you desire that place, but that this place is not desired for you ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Padme » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:56 pm

Okay, let me address a couple comments:

Jake mentioned a gun being a bad suggestion because I said I am "small and petite". Let me clarify; I didn't say petite. Petite is a nice word for short. When I said "small", I suppose I should have said average. I was just trying to illustrate that I am not a big woman, not "hefty", or "rugged". I'm 5'5 and 125 pounds. So I'm not tiny, just average I suppose, if there is any such thing as that anymore. I may have also subconsciously lumped in my muscle situation into that sentence. I'm perfectly capable of normal activities, I just wear out quickly and I'm not every strong. I large rifle with pump action (if that's difficult, I don't even know) might be awkward for me. I don't know much about guns, but I guess I had something more bolt action in mind.

Someone asked "do I have the guts to use it?". That's sort of impossible to say, without being in danger, isn't it? I am assuming that if someone is causing me great bodily harm or trying to kill me, I'm thinking my instinct would kick in and I would use it. I would MUCH prefer shooting in the air to warn a trespasser with clear ill intent to leave, which, from what I hear is most commonly done around here. I have never heard a story around here about anyone getting shot, but I have heard several stories about warning shots in the air and kids, men, suspects running like heck. So I am hoping it would act as a deterrent and that I wouldn't have to shoot anyone.

Someone (sorry, I can't remember who now) on the first page asked if I would help or escalate the two examples I mentioned if I had a gun. I am not saying I wish I had a gun for those situations. Certainly not the one with the mailbox bashing. There's no need to pull a gun on vandalizing kids that aren't even on my property, of course not. I only mentioned it because, when the truck came flying down the hill and I heard the rowdy voices of what I thought were adult MEN, it COULD have been a different scenario. They could have been men looking to harm a person, not kids looking to vandalize. So if I could do that night over, no, I don't wish I had a gun at all. Now the man who came onto my property and barged into my house? Yeah, that might have been different. If I were able to stand on my porch with a gun, maybe just seeing that would have turned him around before he attempted to barge in.

A couple people mentioned me being in fear. I am not in fear actually. I am not a fearful person. I am considering this out of common sense, because I do live alone out here. As I said before, I have disregarded prior suggestions from my neighbors to get a gun because I am not in fear. I wouldn't be walking down the dirt road at night to check the mail if I were in fear. I sit at night and watch TV with the screen door open perfectly relaxed. And I certainly would not have deliberately moved into a cabin alone in the woods if I were a fearful person, that would be rather foolish or naive. Even the two incidents I mentioned haven't put me in fear, they just raised my awareness that something worse *could* happen, and perhaps I should be more prepared. In fact, I think a very fearful person should NOT have a gun, they could be too nervous and trigger quick. I simply want to be prepared, in the hopefully unlikely scenario that someone did try to harm me. Because the police don't come out this way, and because the neighbors are not within sight, it just seems like a smart idea to have some form of self defense.

And lastly, although I appreciate the suggestions, I can assure everyone that I would not even have a gun until I was thoroughly and properly trained on how to use it. There are lots of gun shops, ranges, etc. around here, and I would go to an expert, explain my situation, choose an appropriate weapon and fully train with it before I brought one home. A deadly weapon is a very serious thing, I wouldn't dream of having one unless I felt trained and confident in it's proper usage.
User avatar
Padme
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:12 am

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Padme » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:15 pm

Sönam wrote:There is always an inter-action between your acts, and what is "acted on you" ... therefore if you buy a gun you strongly multiply the eventuality to be brought into a situation where you will use that gun ... it works so, acting in a direction and you solidify events in that direction.
You are today in a situation where you fear something bad happening, therefore you can take two different directions, accelerate the process buying a gun or trying to decelerate it.
I would'nt buy a gun, I would not considere it as a solution ... also I don not have your solution but it exists many other ways to solve your fear.
It's may ba simply that you desire that place, but that this place is not desired for you ...

Sönam


Well, as you can see in my above post, I am not actually in fear. And I don't feel unwelcome here either, I'm just trying to take precautions. But regarding the first part of your post, I can't say I agree. I lose power here a lot because I'm in the mountains and the lines hit the trees frequently. Are you implying that I'm more likely to lose power because I keep plenty of candles and lanterns in the house? Do you see what I mean? Or that I am more likely to break down in my Jeep because I keep an emergency kit and jumpers in the back? I view a self defense weapon the same way. Something I hope I would never need, but might be glad I have in the unlikely even of an emergency. Now if I drove to the store every time with the jumpers in my lap, or carried my lantern around the house every night, I could see your point (although even then I'm not sure I think it would increase my chances of a break down or power outage). But again, I am not a fearful person, who will be clutching a gun and peering nervously out my window at night. I'm simply trying to be prepared.
User avatar
Padme
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:12 am

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Padme » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:30 pm

I would just like to add one more thing. I am not actually asking if you think I am well suited for a gun, or what you think of my size, or if I should just move, etc. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the input, but my question is really more Buddhist-oriented. How Buddhism and self defense relate, etc. Not what you think of my situation, you know? I mean that with all due respect, I really do. But I just realized I'm getting very little input on my actual question, which is how having a weapon for self defense purposes relates to Buddhism and the general practice of doing no harm. Maybe that's my own fault for providing too much detail in my original post, but if we could talk more about that I would appreciate it.
User avatar
Padme
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:12 am

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:18 pm

You want a 100% Buddhist oriented answer? I don't know what type of Buddhism you practice but in the Yana I practice we have Dharmapala practices and Sang practices.

Try them out, you my be suprised by the results!
:namaste:
PS And get yourself a couple of big black dogs! :smile:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Padme » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:25 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You want a 100% Buddhist oriented answer? I don't know what type of Buddhism you practice but in the Yana I practice we have Dharmapala practices and Sang practices.

Try them out, you my be suprised by the results!
:namaste:
PS And get yourself a couple of big black dogs! :smile:


Thanks. It doesn't have to be "100%" buddhist, lol, it's just that my main concern is that aspect of it. Anyone can give me advice on what gun to get, or find one right for my size, etc., but I don't belong to a Sangha, so I'm kind of counting on you folks for the buddhist ethics aspect. The locals around here would have NO CLUE what I mean by wanting to "do no harm". They already think I'm weird just for being a vegetarian, so having a chat about loving-kindness, refraining from harm, etc is greek to them. So I don't mind some other types of advice here, but I can easily discuss that part with anyone. I'm really struggling with the ethics aspect and how I feel about owning a lethal weapon when for example, I won't even kill a mosquito (then again, if the mosquito was trying to murder me, perhaps I would... hence the conundrum).....
User avatar
Padme
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:12 am

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby jake » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:49 pm

Hi Padme,

I'm glad to hear about your attitude towards training etc. I only mentioned it for my own reasons (don't want to be the guy that recommends something and then finds out later the situation turned sour and you were harmed).

Anyway, I find these discussions extremely interesting. Particularly when many of us feel so strongly against "weapons" but have no problem driving a two-ton piece of metal at 100kmh.

I wish you the best in your situation.
jake
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:52 pm

As to guns..I own several and always go in the wilderness with one. A bear broke into a neighbors house/kitchen window not all that long ago and he did shoot and kill it.
And in another new mexican community a elderly woman was killed and eaten by a bear in her own home(several years ago)
Bears go insane as do people....... bugs and whatnot entering their brain.... so things do happen.
So in such circumstance I advocate for a gun.

Bear mace can be very handy. This is a special mace that is used on bears. To use it on a person....well instead of killing this person the worst that could happen is you blind him. But if given water to continually wash it out after exposure I expect that does not happen.
It is hand held and very easy to use and shoots 30 feet or so....so a small person with no special training could use it. You pull the clip and pull the trigger.
It is not preferable to use it but as opposed to shooting someone...that is a better option.
I have gotton it in my eyes, it is painfull but with water it does not blind or cause any permanent damage to my experience.
It is commonly sold in the US in places that do have bears such as the southwest. On line I'm pretty sure it could be purchased.

Other maces I'm not certain if a person is high on drugs or something they would be stopped. This is just to painful to ignore.
But I would certainly use it only at very last resort. All your stuff would have to be repainted if you discharged it in a house for instance...it is long lasting and contamines anything it touches.

Someone invariably will bring up some sutra or other saying we as buddhists can not have weapons.That does to my opinion not apply to this context. living in rural areas alone. That sutra was not meant for this situation to my opinion.
Preserving life as human is much more important than most other things so we may as human continue our spiritual practice.

AS to dogs no offense to anyones good intention.....more incidents of violence, other than domestic in nature... are related to dogs and their owners than any other item I know of. I was attacked on trail by dog just this season and had my two very gentle small dogs attacked by two very large dogs and owner this season as well. ONe man locally was just charged with murder in relationship to a dog issue and a person I know personally was attacked by two large dogs several years back and shot both. The owner came back and attempted to shoot him, but him being well prepared instead shot the owner. He was found innocent of charges....but dogs of other than the most gentle small kind are more trouble then they are worth.

I don't think a gun would be appropriate in this context to repeat....
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
User avatar
ronnewmexico
 
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:17 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Someone invariably will bring up some sutra or other saying we as buddhists can not have weapons.That does to my opinion not apply to this context. living in rural areas alone. That sutra was not meant for this situation to my opinion.
This is the biggest crock I have seen so far! Buddhist monks and yogis were wandering mendicants holed up in the most god forsaken areas you can imagine. They had to pass through areas teeming with bandits, robbers and wild animals and they were not allowed, under any circumstances, to carry weapons, only walking sticks.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:33 pm

It diverts from topic a bit..but most land serf relationship back in the day weapons were part and parcel of the landlord/king/lord/whatever....it being almost always in those context against the law to have weapons...that was what they were paid to do(in a sense) and you having them threatens the relationship.

So as we should be lawful as buddhists in those contexts we should not have weapons, and martial arts some say did evolve from such edicts and some monastic response to those edicts.

But that is not our situation. A woman man small alone rural in these times and places a weapon is rational...the question is what type.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
User avatar
ronnewmexico
 
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Astus » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:39 pm

As I have mentioned before, there is generally no problem in Buddhism with ordinary lay people owning weapons. Even more, we could cite here the involvement of Buddhism in military culture - where that is relevant, of course, in Asia. There are different levels of practitioners. As you may well know from European history, religious views don't necessarily make people morally better. One can be a serial killer and a Buddhist, that's because in that case being a Buddhist is only a weak idea. Also, one can be a living saint without being a Buddhist.

About the levels of practitioners, it is up to each and every one's commitment to the Dharma. Many think only about the benefit in this life so they use Buddhism to get some peace - this is the most common Western view. Many think about the immense suffering in the lower realms (hell realm, ghosts' realm, animals' realm) and about the benefits and pleasures of the higher realms (humans, gods), so they try to avoid the lower and gain birth in the higher - this is the most common among culturally Buddhists. Then there are those who understand that samsara is a big waste of time and effort where there is no lasting peace ever. So the three important levels are those living for this life, those living with the perspective of past and future lives, and those who want to go beyond all kinds of births.

In the case of those who think only of the present life, owning a gun is no big deal. It could be even positive. That's because it makes little difference. Such people only consider if they feel all right or not. From the Buddha's teachings they may understand the benefits of harmlessness and how it relates to mental calm, so it is possible to say that since a weapon is a source of violence one should avoid such things. Just think about how the USA and the USSR raced against each other in creating nuclear bombs, all because of fear. Fear is "what if something bad happens?", so they "prepared for the worst".

In view of past and future lives, the present one is the result of past deeds and the future is formed by the present decisions. If I am robbed, harmed, beaten or killed, those are all the consequences of my past actions. On the other hand, my violence brings harm to me in the future. This is understanding the causal relationships between my acts and my experiences. In order to avoid harm I have to be harmless myself.

"Whoever takes a rod to harm living beings desiring ease, when he himself is looking for ease, will meet with no ease after death.
Whoever doesn't take a rod to harm living beings desiring ease, when he himself is looking for ease, will meet with ease after death."

(Dhp 131-132)

To attain ultimate peace, nirvana, one has to practice peace. It is actually one of the paramitas. It is not just a matter of avoiding the extreme pains of the lower realms, it is developing perfect inner peace. Because here one understands that true peace doesn't exist in samsara. Here is a short discussion between Punna and Buddha.

"Well then, Punna. Now that I have instructed you with a brief instruction, in which country are you going to live?"
"Lord, there is a country called Sunaparanta. I am going to live there."
"Punna, the Sunaparanta people are fierce. They are rough. If they insult and ridicule you, what will you think?"
"If they insult and ridicule me, I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with their hands.' That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone."
"But if they hit you with their hands, what will you think?"
"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a clod.'..."
"But if they hit you with a clod...?"
"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a stick.'..."
"But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
"But if they take your life with a sharp knife...?"
"If they take my life with a sharp knife, I will think, 'There are disciples of the Blessed One who — horrified, humiliated, and disgusted by the body and by life — have sought for an assassin, but here I have met my assassin without searching for him.' That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone."
"Good, Punna, very good. Possessing such calm and self-control you are fit to dwell among the Sunaparantans. Now it is time to do as you see fit."

(SN 35.88, Punna Sutta)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4125
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Luke » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:57 pm

Padme wrote:I would just like to add one more thing. I am not actually asking if you think I am well suited for a gun, or what you think of my size, or if I should just move, etc. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the input, but my question is really more Buddhist-oriented. How Buddhism and self defense relate, etc. Not what you think of my situation, you know? I mean that with all due respect, I really do. But I just realized I'm getting very little input on my actual question, which is how having a weapon for self defense purposes relates to Buddhism and the general practice of doing no harm. Maybe that's my own fault for providing too much detail in my original post, but if we could talk more about that I would appreciate it.

Sorry that we're disappointing you. Your OP did sound like you were asking for opinions as well as Buddhist advice.

Your desire to be compassionate is admirable, but maybe you are also too attached your image of yourself as being a "nice person" who is much better than those people you live near. One Buddhist idea is to see all beings as your teachers and few people teach us as much as our enemies do. The reality seems to be that in order to survive in the area where you live that you will most likely eventually have to do things which are simply "not nice." If you want to be free of this dilemma, then move.
*******************************


I would be very interested if someone found a quote from a Buddhist sutra that stated that violent self-defense is justified. I've never seen one, but then again I haven't read very many sutras. It's quite easy to find Buddhist quotes which speak out against violence.

Even if most (all?) Buddhist texts seem to be against all forms of violence, great Buddhist teachers seem to be divided on the issue.

You have Thich Nhat Hanh on the side of absolute non-violence:
A Vietnam veteran was overheard rebuking the Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, about his unswerving dedication to non-violence.

"You're a fool," said the veteran - "what if someone had wiped out all the Buddhists in the world and you were the last one left. Would you not try to kill the person who was trying to kill you, and in doing so save Buddhism?!"

Thich Nhat Hanh answered patiently "It would be better to let him kill me. If there is any truth to Buddhism and the Dharma it will not disappear from the face of the earth, but will reappear when seekers of truth are ready to rediscover it.

"In killing I would be betraying and abandoning the very teachings I would be seeking to preserve. So it would be better to let him kill me and remain true to the spirit of the Dharma."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... /war.shtml

On the other hand, the current Dalai Lama has frequently said that violent self-defense is justified when there is no other option:
“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... pel?page=2

Another idea that came to my mind is that if you are sure that someone is going to kill you and you have no other option but to kill him, this could be seen as taking the bad karma of killing onto yourself and sparing him from it. As a Buddhist, you have more powerful methods of purifying bad karma at your disposal than most people do. (I'll be interested to hear more knowledgeable Buddhists' opinions about this idea.)
User avatar
Luke
 
Posts: 1558
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:05 pm

So these peoples are complete pacifists in every sense of the word..."Then there are those who understand that samsara is a big waste of time and effort where there is no lasting peace ever. ..

that confuses aspiration with intention. I may aspire to be completely peaceful my present circumstance disallows it. I should then die be beaten whatever..maybe.... maybe to defend myself is also part of the equation..whose to say?

As to buddhism and violence being never substantiated..... by Luke....I'd say it can be. Theravadan have a very close study and discussion of the issue as it related to their just finished war.....virtual books have been written about that. Things can be found to support that as protection or least harm.

On lukes mention of the last line...that would apply only in a enlightened being context that we could actually see someones and our karma so succiently as to bear anothers...
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
User avatar
ronnewmexico
 
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Padme » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:42 pm

Luke wrote:
Padme wrote:I would just like to add one more thing. I am not actually asking if you think I am well suited for a gun, or what you think of my size, or if I should just move, etc. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the input, but my question is really more Buddhist-oriented. How Buddhism and self defense relate, etc. Not what you think of my situation, you know? I mean that with all due respect, I really do. But I just realized I'm getting very little input on my actual question, which is how having a weapon for self defense purposes relates to Buddhism and the general practice of doing no harm. Maybe that's my own fault for providing too much detail in my original post, but if we could talk more about that I would appreciate it.

Sorry that we're disappointing you. Your OP did sound like you were asking for opinions as well as Buddhist advice.

Your desire to be compassionate is admirable, but maybe you are also too attached your image of yourself as being a "nice person" who is much better than those people you live near. One Buddhist idea is to see all beings as your teachers and few people teach us as much as our enemies do. The reality seems to be that in order to survive in the area where you live that you will most likely eventually have to do things which are simply "not nice." If you want to be free of this dilemma, then move.
*******************************


I'm dumbfounded. I certainly never said anyone was disappointing me, I just felt we were getting off track from my actual question and I *thought* I very respectfully clarified and even took blame if my post was misleading. As to me "thinking I am better than my neighbors", I don't know where you get that or why you would say something like that. I don't think I am better than anyone and not sure what I could have said that would give you such an opinion; I'm just shocked. My neighbors are great people, they just don't live close enough to run to easily, where in the world did you get that I think I am better than them or anyone? I don't even know what else to say, I'm just feeling very misunderstood and judged by your comments.
User avatar
Padme
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:12 am

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:47 pm

No offense to you Padma..

unless a person has as gun around them all the time as a piece of their arm or some such they are little inclinded to use it as to stop any violence..

to large is the implication of that thing..it must be second nature.
mace..bear mace I strongly advocate for. One can shoot mace...it is no big deal.
So I repeat my suggestion but will not again.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
User avatar
ronnewmexico
 
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Padme » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:58 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:No offense to you Padma..

unless a person has as gun around them all the time as a piece of their arm or some such they are little inclinded to use it as to stop any violence..

to large is the implication of that thing..it must be second nature.
mace..bear mace I strongly advocate for. One can shoot mace...it is no big deal.
So I repeat my suggestion but will not again.


I'm sorry, I DID get your previous advice but neglected to respond since we were talking about guns so much. I actually googled it and have it in a separate tab to read more about. I have never heard of bear mace vs. regular mace, but I like the idea that it shoots at a greater distance, and sounds a lot less likely to be lethal than a gun. So thank you for that. I've also been reading about "rock salt rounds", in which you replace the lead in a shell with rock salt that supposedly stings and disables, but doesn't kill. Reading about if and how well that actually works..... I appreciated hearing about bear mace, thanks again!
User avatar
Padme
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:12 am

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:58 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
ronnewmexico wrote:Someone invariably will bring up some sutra or other saying we as buddhists can not have weapons.That does to my opinion not apply to this context. living in rural areas alone. That sutra was not meant for this situation to my opinion.
This is the biggest crock I have seen so far! Buddhist monks and yogis were wandering mendicants holed up in the most god forsaken areas you can imagine. They had to pass through areas teeming with bandits, robbers and wild animals and they were not allowed, under any circumstances, to carry weapons, only walking sticks.
:namaste:



Well I know of at least one Ngakpa-yogi nomadic community of the last century which had a gun and used it to protect their gompa from Chinese bandits on camels that had wreaked terror and robbed and killed many people throughout all the neighboring areas. This was in combination with intensive propitiation of the protectors but without going into details let's just say that right won out over might, and some heavy pujas were done to top it all off. This inevitably saved many more gompas, monasteries and other innocents from much potential continued harm. In the Vajrayana, there are liberation rights but these are only for the most advanced pracitioners-- it is said it is required to have the power to revive from the dead in order to be qualified to engage in this activity. For those of us who are not at that level it is of course important to avoid killing at all costs, but I think it is clear that Padme wants a simple deterrent or in the worst case scenario a non-lethal alternative. Like I said, guns can be non-lethal in the hands of someone well-trained. Bean-bag rounds are a good alternative too, along with the stun grenades, etc.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:16 pm

Padme wrote:Someone asked "do I have the guts to use it?". That's sort of impossible to say, without being in danger, isn't it? I am assuming that if someone is causing me great bodily harm or trying to kill me, I'm thinking my instinct would kick in and I would use it.
If you are pointing a gun at somebody the only person in danger of undergoing "great bodily harm" or being killed is the person looking at the hollow end of the gun. If the situation escalates to the point where you are liable to be caused "great bodily harm" or be killed then it is too late to draw the gun. A gun (or any other weapon) is normally drawn when there is a possibility of "great bodily harm" or death. That is why it "takes guts" to use it. You can also see how having a gun actually influences the course of events as you need to approach situations with a completely different mindset for the gun to be effective. Welcome to the realm of paranoia!

I have pulled a weapon on a person three times in my life: once out of fear and twice out of anger. That's why I no longer carry a weapon of any type.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:24 pm

A shot gun is simply not a close in fighting weapon. And if the person is so far away it is applicable for useage...then why shoot at all. Then one would have a problem explaining that to the police.
Threat....they may sense it is but threat and take it away from you.

Rock salt....hit in the face one could well be blinded permenantly...shotguns regardless of shot are nothing to fool around with. Kickback they must be raised to shoulder to shoot....not the weapon of choice for this application.

I have one for bear it is filled with slug shot. A big wad of lead type materials actually.
There are speciality weaponry that do approximate shot guns(someone will probably bring this up), but by specility,. and particular manufacturer they may be very expensive and in use be not of great quality, I would not trust them. In common ownership they would be more curiosity or antique type weapons, which may indeed shoot but may not. They would best be left to gun experts who may qualify their ability and value.

By shot guns...I mean.... as most would buy them...a cheap and normal manufacturer such as one finds at a walmart, by brand... those shotguns are not appropriate for close useage of the kind described here...you find someone at your door trying to get in by knocking the door down or breaking a window in.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
User avatar
ronnewmexico
 
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:09 am

Padme wrote:
Sönam wrote:There is always an inter-action between your acts, and what is "acted on you" ... therefore if you buy a gun you strongly multiply the eventuality to be brought into a situation where you will use that gun ... it works so, acting in a direction and you solidify events in that direction.
You are today in a situation where you fear something bad happening, therefore you can take two different directions, accelerate the process buying a gun or trying to decelerate it.
I would'nt buy a gun, I would not considere it as a solution ... also I don not have your solution but it exists many other ways to solve your fear.
It's may ba simply that you desire that place, but that this place is not desired for you ...

Sönam


Well, as you can see in my above post, I am not actually in fear. And I don't feel unwelcome here either, I'm just trying to take precautions. But regarding the first part of your post, I can't say I agree. I lose power here a lot because I'm in the mountains and the lines hit the trees frequently. Are you implying that I'm more likely to lose power because I keep plenty of candles and lanterns in the house? Do you see what I mean? Or that I am more likely to break down in my Jeep because I keep an emergency kit and jumpers in the back? I view a self defense weapon the same way. Something I hope I would never need, but might be glad I have in the unlikely even of an emergency. Now if I drove to the store every time with the jumpers in my lap, or carried my lantern around the house every night, I could see your point (although even then I'm not sure I think it would increase my chances of a break down or power outage). But again, I am not a fearful person, who will be clutching a gun and peering nervously out my window at night. I'm simply trying to be prepared.


Just a little detour. What Sonam is saying, the part in bold (by me), is not completely off the mark. The fact that one has a gun may propitiate the ripening of karma related to some sorts of violence. In a way, we add a secondary circumstance in our life that may allow the manifestation of certain types of karmic potential. I stress the may. It's not a clear cut thing, but it's not like the example you pointed padme (the candles and lanterns stuff). :smile:

Whatever you decide to do, I hope all works out.
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JKhedrup, Johnny Dangerous, Lotus108, Simon E., supermaxv and 11 guests

>