Buddhism & Guns?

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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:50 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Or alternatively one could argue that purchasing meat or guns is not a direct link and both are acceptable, then at least there is some consistency there too.
Two wrongs don't make a right David. ;)
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:59 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:Two wrongs don't make a right David. ;)


You're assuming they are two wrongs. Maybe purchasing meat and purchasing guns are not two wrongs. This is what is up for debate. All I'm saying is that it is best if one's view was at least consistent. Or on the other hand maybe they are are both 2 wrongs as you state. Then that is consistent too.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:04 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Two wrongs don't make a right David. ;)


You're assuming they are two wrongs. Maybe purchasing meat and purchasing guns are not two wrongs. This is what is up for debate. All I'm saying is that it is best if one's view was at least consistent. Or on the other hand maybe they are are both 2 wrongs as you state. Then that is consistent too.
You think the Buddha made statements like the AN quote in order to foster debate, or maybe it is our delusive desire to validate our self-serving grasping that tries to make them objects of debate? If you ask me, the AN quote is pretty clear.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby TheSpirit » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:29 am

Sherab,

In theravada, I don't think practitioner take the word of Buddha as absolute truth without and investigation. I think the Buddha taught the Middle way. And I know there is a difference on stance with guns even among the priests/masters so no I will not accept your claim that your opinion is the ultimate Buddhist view. I hope Buddhism isn't like Bible thumper Christian. Whatever written on text is the ultimate authority.

Your post of statistic comparing difference cause of death to gun fight is once again irrelevant. It is like saying you are more likely to die from cancer than getting in a car wreck so invest in health insurance and dont worry about seat belt or drive safely. This is the point i have been bringing up over and again. Just because you can die from one cause, doesn't mean you omit taking the measure to ensure your safety from other causes. And for your information, I eat healthy, I run everyday, and I have health insurance. But once again I am not discussing cancer or any other cause of death, I am talking about gun.

Sorry but I feel like you are incapable of discussing this topic without being sarcastic or irrelevant. Intact there are so much assumption made here that it is almost a joke such as I'm not taking other measures of safety. You have constantly bringing up unrealistic expectation. Do you seriously think you can watch your family getting killed in the name of Buddhism and compassion. Dont expect me. Unless you did, then its all talk. And even if you were able to witness,your family slaughtered by an intruder and do nothing, you are a sick person.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby TheSpirit » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:31 am

Son of Buddha wrote:If you want a good deterent to guns that fire bullets at you,try buying body armor
http://www.ar500armor.com/


you randomly wear body armor at home and have your family wear it too at all time? Body armor doesn't save you either if they can shoot your head or enough time.

Neither do guns, and I can tell you straight up from having been broken into, you almost never know it right away, unless you are near the window or something. Again most people are looking to avoid you knowing what is happening with their breaking in, home invasions are alot rarer, even rarer still are random home invasions. Not to say they don't happen of course.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:35 am

Do you think there are armies of intruders out there ready to slaughter your family?

This is really the biggest part of the question, not whether guns are "right" or "wrong" for a Buddhist, but what possibilities are opened up by owning guns, and what it does, or might do to your mind owning them.

You seem really concerned about "intruders' that want to kill you. This is really not a very common occurrence, most people breaking into a house are looking for an absence of people, and an absence of trouble, they want quick, effort-free money..so planning for one's safety should take that into consideration as well, including not making yourself a likely target of being robbed, Instead of assuming that every circumstance is going to be one which needs to involve a threat of deadly force. I firmly believe that looking at your mind, and how your mind is effected by weapons ownership is probably a better indicator of how is squares with Buddhism, than adopting specific rules is.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:48 am

TheSpirit wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:If you want a good deterent to guns that fire bullets at you,try buying body armor
http://www.ar500armor.com/


you randomly wear body armor at home and have your family wear it too at all time? Body armor doesn't save you either if they can shoot your head or enough time.

Neither do guns, and I can tell you straight up from having been broken into, you almost never know it right away, unless you are near the window or something. Again most people are looking to avoid you knowing what is happening with their breaking in, home invasions are alot rarer, even rarer still are random home invasions. Not to say they don't happen of course.


I keep my Body armor under the bed with my AK 47 and my glock 23 in the night stand next to the body armor :mrgreen:

Body armor can actually be thrown on in less than 3 seconds(just stick your head in the middle of the shoulder straps and you are done).

As far as them shooting you in the head that is always a possibility but more than likely they will be aiming center mass(heart).

Also I need to clear up some misconceptions people have about closes quater combat senariors(or just shooting people in general)

Many people watch to many movies and tend to think that when they shoot a person the guy/intruder will fall down and die instantly and you will have protected your home............

This is actually the furthest from the truth,in fact in most gun fights with home intruders BOTH the home invader AND the home defender are shot,in some cases they shoot each other to death and leave noone alive and why is this??

Well if you get lucky and hit me in an artery I have 4 MINUTES until I bleed out,if you hit me in other none vital places i can live up to 15 minutes and in some cases days before dying.(as long as I stop the bleeding)

Now how long dose it take to Pull the trigger of a gun and empty a 15 rd mag? It takes mere seconds.......so essentially I have 4 minutes after you have shot me to kill.....

Okay you may say well what if I shoot you in the heart?......okay well after being shot in the heart you have actually 20 seconds before death....again plenty of time to empty my mag.

In fact the only way to kill a person instantly is to shoot them throught the nose or mouth and hit their brain stem.......(which is not easy when you are scared and in lowlight) .

So in an actual home invasion situation.... the odds are that you will be shot as well as the home invader........

Thats why I said you want protection against a gun that fires bullets get Body Armor.
(also I never said to not own a gun.......only that a gun will not protect you from being shot.)
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby muni » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:17 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Even if there were absolutely no guns in the entire society, how would you answer my post above if the intruders broke into your home, with intent to kill and were using machetes?



There will be probably not much time. Possible paralysing shock may be by which mind/thought is not able to be filled by hatred, fear, or being mindful. Actually to say what one should do while not being in that situation I cannot since it are opinions, fantasy images. These doesn't help us at all. It depends on ones state of being at the moment, which is very important in case death follows.

Of course I can parrot the Buddha and say: "you only lose what you cling to" or “If you truly loved yourself, you could never hurt another.” But these are limitations when they are my talking about. Therefore when there is the genuine wish for freedom in daily life right now, that's all what is there to be. Right now is the only moment to prepare mind. And that's all I know.

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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Nemo » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:32 am

TheSpirit wrote:
Nemo wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:So, for me, it is pretty damn clear that if somebody says that guns are not for killing that either they are a) Naive to the point of brain dead stupidity or b) Purposefully deceptive (including self-deception) in order to justify their agenda.
Civilians think dumb things based on movies and imagination. They have no practical appreciation of industrialized killing. I agree with you completely. Escalating the level of violence by becoming armed is directly counter to what the Buddha taught.

TheSpirit wrote:I think you are rather the naive one beyond imagination. Yes Gun was created to shoot. Does it has to kill? Yes it can. You can also shoot a guy legs off and then immobilize him without killing.The intruder might not have a gun and can easily empower reddust.


Shooting to wound only works in movies. Perhaps she should just shoot the guns out of her enemies hands.


No, civilians do not think dumb things based on movie because people here die all the times from break in and intruders. My family is affected and people I know was killed so it is very realistic. I am not quite sure where you are from but you really have no realistic idea of what is going on, atleast where I am from.

Shooting to wound do not only just happen in movie. If you know anything about gun you know it is possible. Most gun fight will probably be around 20 ft if it is an intruder. It is very easy to aim specifically at various anatomy part at that range. Also if you have a rifle, it is a lot easier to aim and very accurate at 20 ft at their legs, and just a small caliber such as a .22 it will wound the intruder to slow them or immobilize them temporary but do not kill. Also pistol can also equip laser point which make it easier as well. However within 20ft, I don't need a laser point to aim and shoot at their legs and not miss.


I live in a quiet country. Most police officers in my city still retire without having drawn their gun. Maybe you are living in a very dangerous place and should move somewhere with proper free healthcare, pensions and safe streets. It may call itself the best country in the world but if it is that dangerous you should not live there. My primary advice to you is MOVE SOMEPLACE SAFER. I'm not even sure if I locked the door when I went to bed tonight. It's not that I don't love guns. It's just that they are a pain to keep locked up and have permits for. I have no use for one in my civilian life and wish I did have an excuse to get one.(Two actually. KSG shotgun and an AR) I also have kids and a very volatile wife. Terrible idea to have guns in the house. You don't have to be Buddhist to know everyone becoming heavily armed psychos who can easily be pushed to murder is deranged. Just because a psychosis is shared does not make it right.

I am a former military medic, so gun shots were part of my job. You are pretty clueless about cleaning up the mess after gunfighting and the grievous and crippling wounds bullets inflict. Pulling that trigger is something many people can't do. It is very different when an actual human is in front of you. If you can you have to live with the results. For some that is even worse than not firing at all. Considering you can just leave the dangerous area you have only yourself to blame. Pretending you have no other option is not being honest. You want a gun and it is directly against what the Buddha taught.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:33 am

TheSpirit wrote:Your post of statistic comparing difference cause of death to gun fight is once again irrelevant.
It is 100% relevant, the FACTS just don't serve to validate your narrow self-serving agenda. You have obviously made up your mind about the issue (by disregarding every shred of valid evidence that may contradict your decision), so why are you wasting everybodies precious time?

You want to own firearms? Go for it! But you can't have your cake (firearms) and eat it (moral "highground" as a Buddhist) too. There is a term for this: hypocrisy. We are all guilty of it at some point in time. Admitting it is the first step in overcoming it.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:55 am

Son of Buddha wrote:Thats why I said you want protection against a gun that fires bullets get Body Armor.
(also I never said to not own a gun.......only that a gun will not protect you from being shot.)
Good point! Isn't it funny that "TheSpirit" considers it unrealistic and silly to "randomly wear body armor" whereas the idea of his family swaggering around with holsters and six shooters is completely sane and logical?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:13 pm

Ok, topic unlocked, for now. All these related threads have been merged, as in the Great Vegetarian thread. If you want to discuss this controversial topic, then remember the TOS: "No Inappropriate Language" and "Be polite. Rudeness in any form will not be tolerated. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant will initially be suspended to give the moderating team time to discuss if there is to be further action."
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sönam » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:50 pm

I was reading that thread and was quite astonished that no one (I did'nt read all) simply explained that there is no chance, no hazard in this samsara and that if you are shot it is simply because of your karma, and if you have to be hurted, to hold a gun will just add a supplementary reason for you to be shot. To hold a gun do not help, it only contributes to the shouting concept.
Funny how (some) buddhists simply don't trust in there own life what they pretend to know and to explain on a forum ...

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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:02 pm

Sönam wrote:I was reading that thread and was quite astonished that no one (I did'nt read all) simply explained that there is no chance, no hazard in this samsara and that if you are shot it is simply because of your karma, and if you have to be hurted, to hold a gun will just add a supplementary reason for you to be shot. To hold a gun do not help, it only contributes to the shouting concept.
Funny how (some) buddhists simply don't trust in there own life what they pretend to know and to explain on a forum ...

I agree that presenting a gun during a confrontation is an invitation to be shot.

But is karma vipaka (thanks Greg) really the same as destiny? Surely that could only be the case if there was no interaction between individuals whatsoever.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby theanarchist » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:55 pm

I'm not sure having a gun it so useful.

Firstly, you have to have some amount of training to use it properly. For example to shoot the intruder in the leg instead of killing him.

Secondly, in a surprise attack it is useless to have one, unless you carry it with you all the time. And that sounds a bit paranoid to me. Particularly for a buddhist.

Thirdly, there are different types of intruders. Would you shoot the annoying drunk? Would you shoot someone who is not after your life but just after some valuables?

If I was feeling unseafe I would get myself an alarm system, pepper spray and a safe room somewhere in the house that has telephone to call the police. And possible a big dog with good protective instinct.
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Tenzin & Söpa » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:01 pm

Padme wrote:Thanks, but I'm definitely not moving! I just bought this place less than 2 years ago, and I love it here. I know this topic may make it sound bad, but it's actually a beautiful area, I have a cottage in the mountains, I wouldn't trade it for the world.


I like to think of home as some place where a person can be (more) or less safe. If you lack this, what worth is a beautiful view? If I understand correctly what you said, it boils down to the fact that attachment to that particular view is worth killing another person (whether in self-defense or due to a misunderstanding) - or getting killed or raped yourself. Why so?
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Re: Buddhism & Guns?

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:05 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Sönam wrote:I was reading that thread and was quite astonished that no one (I did'nt read all) simply explained that there is no chance, no hazard in this samsara and that if you are shot it is simply because of your karma, and if you have to be hurted, to hold a gun will just add a supplementary reason for you to be shot. To hold a gun do not help, it only contributes to the shouting concept.
Funny how (some) buddhists simply don't trust in there own life what they pretend to know and to explain on a forum ...

I agree that presenting a gun during a confrontation is an invitation to be shot.

But is karma vipaka (thanks Greg) really the same as destiny? Surely that could only be the case if there was no interaction between individuals whatsoever.


THis is not precisely what I ment ... I ment that if you are into a mind tripping on gun is helpfull or will help if you are attacked or such sort of things, then you accumulate a karma that certainly will bring you in trouble (so you can use a gun). Life is a mandala

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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