Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby platypus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:
platypus wrote:There are a few immortal animals.


Only jellyfish. And no one is sure they are even sentient.

N

not just jellyfish, hydras and Tardigrades too all of which are within the animal kingdom. I'm not sure on your point about sentience.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby Enochian » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:27 pm

platypus wrote:I'm not sure on your point about sentience.



He is saying they are sort of like plants. No personality.

You can't have complex animals like us being immortal.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:28 pm

Immortal means generally...not subject to death.

All those things can be killed, and will at some time or other, the odds just come up against you with long enough time span considerations.

Nothing born is immortal.
Born in this context meaning...anything that assumes by cause a recognizable seperate identity.(not human born or animal birth). Any living thing.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby platypus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Enochian wrote:
platypus wrote:I'm not sure on your point about sentience.



He is saying they are sort of like plants. No personality.

You can't have complex animals like us being immortal.
its undeterminable personally I think its best to be inclusive when looking at this, plus they still exist on the animal plane.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby Quiet Heart » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:56 am

:shrug:
Well, I don't see what this has to do with Buddhisim but....
Some Science Fiction writers have used a plot in which, in the distant future, what are essentially immortal beings exist.
This is done by somehow transferring one's conciousness into an artificial being created for that purpose...and artificial body not of flesh but in fact a construct created for that purpose.
When that body began to wear out...as eventially it must...then a new body would be created and the conciousness would be transferred into that new body and the old one either destroyed or perhaps recycled and reused.
Also if any body part was somehow damaged, it could be removed and replaced with a new "unit".
It has even been suggested that such a condition will be what we will find if we ever do meet a really advanced intelligent alien lifeform...because they will have evolved beyond the physical body humans have now live in such an artificial construct...transferring their conciousness when the old body begins to wear out into a new body.
It has even been speculated that this is the normal condition for any sufficently evolved intelligent lifeform...the biological body we have as human beings is merely an early imperfect biological stage which will ultimately lead to a nearly immortal non-biological stage.
But all that is just Science Fiction speculation, and can't be done today or for any forseeable future.
Come to think of it...what implications does that possibility have for the concept of Karma or Rebirh for Buddhists?
:shrug:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
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The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby LastLegend » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:45 am

Quiet Heart wrote:Come to think of it...what implications does that possibility have for the concept of Karma or Rebirh for Buddhists?


Rebirth is like changing clothes except changing body in this case.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby ground » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:06 am

Putting this thread's topic aside and contemplating according to the Lamrim instead would be conducive.

2. Mindfulness of death, the contemplation that you will not remain long in this world
2.1 The faults of not cultivating mindfulness of death
2.2 The benefits of not cultivating mindfulness of death
2.3 The kind of mindfulness of death you should develop
2.4 How to cultivate mindfulness of death
2.4.1 The contemplation that death is certain
2.4.1.1 The contemplation that the Lord of Death will definitely come, and therefore cannot be avoided
2.4.1.2 The contemplation that our lifetime connot be extended and constantly diminishes
2.4.1.3 The contemplation of the certainty of death such that even while you are alive there is little time for religious practice
2.4.2 The contemplation that the time of death is uncertain
2.4.2.1 The contemplation that the life span in this world is uncertain
2.4.2.2 The contemplation that the causes of death are very many and the causes of life are few
2.4.2.4 The contemplation that the time of death is uncertain because the body is very fragile
2.4.3 The contemplation that at the time of death nothing helps except religious practice
Friends will not help, Resources will not help, Your body will not help



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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby mudra » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:03 am

Rather than putting this thread's topic aside (it would be more appropriate to just start another thread, no?) it might be interesting to discuss the Mara of death, what it means, what the meaning of vanquishing it is.

Also to be found in the Lam Rim. But further down than in the section of the Path practiced in common with those of lesser capacity.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:06 am

Quiet heart....I have noticed that we have a inclination for looking at immortality as wholly on our side, as in we create a body and then that lives forever.

What I say is absolutely true for us as well as for anythings else such as jellyfish, the longer you live is the greater the chance the unusual will happen to you.
A car hops a curb and crushes someone. A rare occurance perhaps 20 thousand world wide a year. If your life is a million years the chances one has such a occurance happen is greatly increased. The actual chance for that one incident remain the same as if you lived a year, but the extension of life makes it much more probably to be exposed to many more of those potentialities of occurance.

So what would happen..life suchly extended accident of untimely occurance becomes the sources of all perceived death.
So it is like a god realm a bit, but you will still die regardless of how fabously constructed.
As things are randomness is implied in the universes the earth the planets and other things.
AS this universe ends(we are hurling outward at a every increasing rate of speed to who knows where) will end all life, likely devoured by hungry black hole.

So it is the same. There is no differing implication for buddhism.
That we tend to think of things from only our side speaks to my opinion of the samsaric nature of our thoughts and ways of thinking,not to reality.

I've always liked the life as flash of lightening analogy. A million years, perhaps a brief thunderstorm in a summer day by my take.
The time of a universe..... how long it continues in form before dissolution, maybe a season of a year by my take.
A billion lives we have lived here and elsewhere in one realm only are we talking.
Very small always is our scope as to how things may be. A mechanical body, no offense but a joke, thinking they can create immortality from parted things.
The very ground they make these being parted and thus headed headstrong and directly towards destruction, and reconstruction.
Black hole eats all, near as we can tell, no energy but that not recognized by us emitts at all.
Who says fate of black hole is not our fate as well in all things of matter be. And then explosion and universe accelerating once again.
REplication on and on. And we construct metal bodies to alley this fate. How silly it seems to be left then in the same place seeking dharma when life is bound to end, but a million or billion of years for naught, to no aim. SAme place...dead.
Ego to my opinion dislikes large large things of consideration.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby Dexing » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:07 am

LastLegend wrote:
Quiet Heart wrote:Come to think of it...what implications does that possibility have for the concept of Karma or Rebirh for Buddhists?


Rebirth is like changing clothes except changing body in this case.


A body changes clothes. What changes bodies?

It is a Hindu expression of reincarnation in the Bhagavad Gītā, that the eternal self changes bodies like bodies change clothes.

There is no such expression or belief in Buddhist scripture about the concept of rebirth.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby LastLegend » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:48 am

Dexing wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
Quiet Heart wrote:Come to think of it...what implications does that possibility have for the concept of Karma or Rebirh for Buddhists?


Rebirth is like changing clothes except changing body in this case.


A body changes clothes. What changes bodies?

It is a Hindu expression of reincarnation in the Bhagavad Gītā, that the eternal self changes bodies like bodies change clothes.

There is no such expression or belief in Buddhist scripture about the concept of rebirth.

:namaste:


Then explain what is rebirth in Buddhism.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby ground » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:00 am

mudra wrote:Rather than putting this thread's topic aside (it would be more appropriate to just start another thread, no?) it might be interesting to discuss the Mara of death, what it means, what the meaning of vanquishing it is.

And not to forget about "clinging to existence" ... which often comes in the disguise of "belief in rebirth" and "accumulating merits".


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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:22 am

TMingyur wrote:
mudra wrote:Rather than putting this thread's topic aside (it would be more appropriate to just start another thread, no?) it might be interesting to discuss the Mara of death, what it means, what the meaning of vanquishing it is.

And not to forget about "clinging to existence" ... which often comes in the disguise of "belief in rebirth" and "accumulating merits".


Kind regards
So the Buddha was clinging to existence when he explained rebirth? Was he clinging to existence when he explained that we should reject (new) and decrease (existing) unwholesome habits and acts and accept (new) and increase (existing) wholesome habits and acts?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby ground » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:26 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
mudra wrote:Rather than putting this thread's topic aside (it would be more appropriate to just start another thread, no?) it might be interesting to discuss the Mara of death, what it means, what the meaning of vanquishing it is.

And not to forget about "clinging to existence" ... which often comes in the disguise of "belief in rebirth" and "accumulating merits".


Kind regards
So the Buddha was clinging to existence when he explained rebirth?


Your conclusion implied by your question must be based on some special kind of "logic".


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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:31 am

And your answer betrays an incapacity to answer my question because your opening statement was based on an illogical personal bias.

Let me phrase it more simply: Why did the Buddha explain the mechanism of karma and rebirth? In order that sentient beings may become attached to existence?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby Clarence » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:34 am

Ah, but in about 30-50 years we will be able to stretch human lifespan to about 1000-1500 years. Not immortal, but definitely a lot longer than we are living now.
That is, of course, if science keeps developing the way it is.
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby ground » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:48 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Let me phrase it more simply: Why did the Buddha explain the mechanism of karma and rebirth? In order that sentient beings may become attached to existence?


1. The Buddha did not explain any "mechanism".

2. The Buddha is not responsible for the attachments of sentient beings regardless of what He taught.


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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:59 am

TMingyur wrote:1. The Buddha did not explain any "mechanism".
Of course he did.

2. The Buddha is not responsible for the attachments of sentient beings regardless of what He taught.
I agree 100%.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:40 pm

Here's a current link attesting to the largeness of things. And due to the fact that the universe is accelerating away we can assume that large parts of its constituancy some call grey matter are present but not perceptable directly by us. WE know of their presence by actions of other known objects.
Our real known inert matter known universe may be a very minor part of a larger unknown to us universe,,,that is current thinking..


.....http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Displayarticle09.asp?section=todaysfeatures&xfile=data/todaysfeatures/2011/July/todaysfeatures_July45.xml ..

you have to look closely at the numbers.

and we think we will attain immortality through a machine we develope. No offense but that is a bit silly looking at eternity and the largeness and beyond personal control of things that are.

The comments that follow the article are invariably personal relateing all to us and comical to read.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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