Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:46 pm

If we insist on using a term with a person that we know is hurtful to that person then we've determined there is some truth we need to convey which is higher than loving-kindness, and there isn't.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:28 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:If we insist on using a term with a person that we know is hurtful to that person then we've determined there is some truth we need to convey which is higher than loving-kindness, and there isn't.


There is a truth higher than loving kindness (since loving kindness will not bring anyone to liberation). The issue is skillful means.

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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:55 pm

Color me romantic. Love is all you need.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby adinatha » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:11 pm

sravakayana perhaps better?
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:16 pm

You Buddhists. Y'all ain't got no soul.

:rolling:
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby adinatha » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:16 pm

Kyosan wrote:
Huseng wrote:

Hīnayāna as translated as "Small Vehicle" is somewhat inaccurate. In Chinese it was translated as such (xiao cheng 小乘, literally "Small Vehicle") by Kumārajīva, perhaps because he did not wish to upset anyone. The term is best understood as meaning "base" or "deficient" vehicle. See the following definition for "hīna" as given in the Monier-Williams dictionary:

hīna
(H2) hīná [p= 1296,2] [L=262540] mfn. left , abandoned , forsaken RV.
[p= 1296,3] [L=262541] left behind , excluded or shut out from , lower or weaker than , inferior to (abl.) Mn. MBh. &c
[L=262542] left out , wanting , omitted MBh.
[L=262543] defeated or worsted (in a lawsuit) Ya1jn5.
[L=262544] deficient , defective , faulty , insufficient , short , incomplete , poor , little , low , vile , bad , base , mean S3Br. &c
[L=262545] bereft or deprived of , free from , devoid or destitute of , without (instr. abl. loc. acc. , or comp. ; prā*ṇair hīnaḥ , " bereft of breath or life " ; mantrād or mantrato h° , " devoid of sacred knowledge ") Mun2d2Up. Ka1tyS3r. Mn. MBh. &c
[L=262546] lost or strayed from (a caravan) Pa1n2. i , 4 , 23 Ka1s3.
[L=262547] brought low , broken down in circumstances S3rS.
(H2B) hīná [L=262548] m. a faulty or defective witness (of five kinds , viz. anya-vādin , kriyā-dveṣin , no*pasthāyin , nir-uttara , āhūsa-prapalā*yin) Ya1jn5. Sch.
(H2B) hīná [L=262549] m. subtraction (= = vyavakalana) MW.
(H2B) hīná [L=262550] m. Mesua Ferrea L.
(H2B) hīná [L=262552] n. deficiency , want , absence (velā-hīne " before the right time " , " unseasonably ") VarBr2S. Ya1jn5.

The word is derogatory and the fact that Theravadins don't like that word should tell us something. Theravada, which I think means "Way of the Elders", is a more respectful name. I think it's best to respect the Theravadins wishes and call them that.
:namaste:


I know one major Theravada guy Thassinaro Bhikku doesn't care and refers to his own practice as Hinayana. He doesn't seem to care because he is openly derogatory about Mahayana.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Chaz » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:21 pm

I also wonder why those who object to "Hinayana" don't object as strenuously to the use of the word "Mahayana".

To say there is a "greater" vehicle, implies and presupposes that there is a contrasting "lesser" vehicle. This could also be taken to mean that anything not Mahayana would be, by neccessity, a lesser yana. So, regardless of the terminology used, any tradition that is not Mahayana, must be lesser, or Hinayana. Why then no objections to Mahayana to go along with objections to Hinayana?
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Chaz » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:22 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:You Buddhists. Y'all ain't got no soul.

:rolling:



That much is true. I have no soul.

:broke:
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Josef » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:44 pm

adinatha wrote:I know one major Theravada guy Thassinaro Bhikku doesn't care and refers to his own practice as Hinayana. He doesn't seem to care because he is openly derogatory about Mahayana.

His translations are all agenda based.
His site in my opinion does a great disservice.
Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are far superior.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Astus » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:28 pm

Nangwa wrote:His translations are all agenda based.


Show me one he has no agenda. You can't. From the point of deciding to translate, in the process of choosing what to translate up to the point of polishing that translation is all influenced by the views of that translator. And if you say there is an "orthodox" and an "unorthodox" view, it just means you have your chosen agenda.
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Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Josef » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:01 pm

Astus wrote:
Nangwa wrote:His translations are all agenda based.


Show me one he has no agenda. You can't. From the point of deciding to translate, in the process of choosing what to translate up to the point of polishing that translation is all influenced by the views of that translator. And if you say there is an "orthodox" and an "unorthodox" view, it just means you have your chosen agenda.

Sure. If I were a translator I would take an orthodox approach and my agenda would be to make every effort to produce a translation the clearly conveyed the meaning of the text in question.
I do not believe Thanissaro does this. His agenda seems to be to gloss over or blatantly misrepresent "orthodox" references to rebirth etc. in order to promote a version of Buddhism that he is more comfortable with.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby adinatha » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:28 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Astus wrote:
Nangwa wrote:His translations are all agenda based.


Show me one he has no agenda. You can't. From the point of deciding to translate, in the process of choosing what to translate up to the point of polishing that translation is all influenced by the views of that translator. And if you say there is an "orthodox" and an "unorthodox" view, it just means you have your chosen agenda.

Sure. If I were a translator I would take an orthodox approach and my agenda would be to make every effort to produce a translation the clearly conveyed the meaning of the text in question.
I do not believe Thanissaro does this. His agenda seems to be to gloss over or blatantly misrepresent "orthodox" references to rebirth etc. in order to promote a version of Buddhism that he is more comfortable with.


Example?
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Jnana » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:43 am

Nangwa wrote:His site in my opinion does a great disservice.

ATI isn't Ven. Ṭhānissaro's website. Moreover, your opinion seems to me to be rather extreme. You're overstating any biases in Ṭhānissaro's translations, which are generally consistent with the translations of Bodhi and Ñāṇamoli. ATI is a decent resource.

Nangwa wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are far superior.

While Ven. Bodhi's translations are probably the most reliable grammatically, there is still plenty of room for exploring alternate and more fitting translations of a wide variety of terms. As Lance Cousins says in his Review of The Middle Length Discourses:

    Contrary to Bhikkhu Bodhi, I believe that it is most important at this stage to discourage the adoption of a standard misrendering; what is needed is much more creativity and variety among translators so as to facilitate the discovery of better ways of expressing the ideas of early Buddhism.

The translation of Buddhist texts into Western languages is still a work in progress, and in the Pāli tradition there is a very small number of scholars interested in these texts (e.g. compare with the large number of translators working in the Tibetan traditions). See Lance Cousins complete Review of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha to get a small taste for how someone knowledgeable about the many issues involved in hermeneutics and translation views such matters.

Nangwa wrote:His agenda seems to be to gloss over or blatantly misrepresent "orthodox" references to rebirth etc. in order to promote a version of Buddhism that he is more comfortable with.

Where do you perceive this heterodox agenda in his translations?

All the best,

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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Josef » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:17 am

Take the Samyutta Nikaya for instance and compare just about any of Than's translation with Bodhi's side by side.
For example if you look at SN 15:3 you can get a taste of Than's avoidance of samsara in favor of his interpretation of it as "wandering on".
If you ask me this nearly completely neuters the impact of the sutta.
I also find his rendering of dukkha as "stress" to be really strange and it severely diminishes the impact of the teachings.
It may not be inaccurate but it certainly limits the scope of the words meaning.

You can put the two side by side just about anywhere and with Bodhi you get serious Buddhism, with Than you do not.

Remember, these are just my opinions
I find his translations to be unreadable and I feel they provide a very watered down look into the Nikayas.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby adinatha » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:57 am

A serious student will ask "what is stress the translation of" or look at a glossary or something. Translators all have their preferences. I prefer key terms to be left untranslated, but that's just my preferences. Having a preference is not dharma.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Kyosan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:49 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:You Buddhists. Y'all ain't got no soul.

:rolling:

I liked some of your other posts in this thread, but am afraid that with this one you lost it. There are all kinds of Buddhists, just as I'm sure that there are all kinds of whatever you are.

And I question why you would find the prospect of Buddhists not having souls (whatever that means) funny.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:47 pm

Kyosan wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:You Buddhists. Y'all ain't got no soul.

:rolling:

I liked some of your other posts in this thread, but am afraid that with this one you lost it. There are all kinds of Buddhists, just as I'm sure that there are all kinds of whatever you are.

And I question why you would find the prospect of Buddhists not having souls (whatever that means) funny.
:namaste:


It was meant to be humorous. If you were offended I apologize. I didn't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities. Although yours seem a little delicate.

:tongue:
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Kyosan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:18 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Kyosan wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:You Buddhists. Y'all ain't got no soul.

:rolling:

I liked some of your other posts in this thread, but am afraid that with this one you lost it. There are all kinds of Buddhists, just as I'm sure that there are all kinds of whatever you are.

And I question why you would find the prospect of Buddhists not having souls (whatever that means) funny.
:namaste:


It was meant to be humorous. If you were offended I apologize. I didn't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities. Although yours seem a little delicate.

:tongue:

I'm mildly offended but that's not what motivated me to write the post. Whenever I see any kind of stereotyping I often respond and speak out against it. That's true whether it's stereotyping against what I am (a Buddhist) or other groups such as Muslims. In fact, on another forum I spent so much time defending the Muslims that some of the people there thought I was a Muslim even though I told them that I am a Buddhist. :) It's about speaking the truth and not speaking from ignorance. I try to do that as best I can.
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Dexing » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:11 am

Kyoson, are you not a native English speaker, or....?

"Y'all ain't got no soul" is obvious sarcasm, made clear by the grammar. lol
nopalabhyate...
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Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'

Postby Jnana » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:56 am

Nangwa wrote:You can put the two side by side just about anywhere and with Bodhi you get serious Buddhism, with Than you do not.

Nonsense.
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