Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?

[fragrant herbs]

namdrol, how do you know that it is false.

Well, for one there are no translations from Pali in Tibetan.

Two, any such translation could only have been done at earliest in 650 AD. We have no record of such a translation.

Three, there were no Buddhist monasteries in Tibet or Ladakh 2000 years ago.

it doesn't take away from the fact that the gospels are replete with teachings of buddha.

No, they are not.

N

Interesting. I thought Hemis was there. I looked and it wasn't there then.

As for the teachings being much alike, that would have to be another thread, but there is a book titled, The Original Jesus, The Buddhist Sources of Christianity. This has nothing to do with the story of Jesus going to India but that the teachings were already in existence where Jesus lived. The book gives side by side teachings of Jesus and Buddha.

[Malcolm]

As for the teachings being much alike, that would have to be another thread, but there is a book titled, The Original Jesus, The Buddhist Sources of Christianity. This has nothing to do with the story of Jesus going to India but that the teachings were already in existence where Jesus lived. The book gives side by side teachings of Jesus and Buddha.

The Teachings of Jesus are sourced in Talmud. No need to imput Buddhist origins.

[fragrant herbs]

As for the teachings being much alike, that would have to be another thread, but there is a book titled, The Original Jesus, The Buddhist Sources of Christianity. This has nothing to do with the story of Jesus going to India but that the teachings were already in existence where Jesus lived. The book gives side by side teachings of Jesus and Buddha.

The Teachings of Jesus are sourced in Talmud. No need to imput Buddhist origins.

Some of them are, but most not, or why would Jesus be any different than the Tulmuds?

[Malcolm]

As for the teachings being much alike, that would have to be another thread, but there is a book titled, The Original Jesus, The Buddhist Sources of Christianity. This has nothing to do with the story of Jesus going to India but that the teachings were already in existence where Jesus lived. The book gives side by side teachings of Jesus and Buddha.

The Teachings of Jesus are sourced in Talmud. No need to imput Buddhist origins.

Some of them are, but most not, or why would Jesus be any different than the Tulmuds?

Jesus was a rabbi. He was not a Buddhist.

N

[Tenzin1]

I've read that the text in Ladakh was a copy of one in Lhasa, but the supposed original has never been found, so idk. However, by the time Jesus arrived in India, Pali was heavily Sanskritized and was no longer a spoken language. Scholars say that North India recorded events in their own dialects, and that would have been true of Kashmir, certainly. Or Sanskrit could have been used. We don't know the language of the original recording of the events of Jesus' live in the East. I don't see how Pali is relevant to this question.

I've read the denunciations of Notovich, I'm not going to comment on him. However, if you don't believe that the Roerichs, who are highly reputable, found and translated the text, and published news of their finding in US newspapers, call the Roerich Museum. You don't have to take my word for it.

[Malcolm]

I've read that the text in Ladakh was a copy of one in Lhasa, but the supposed original has never been found, so idk. However, by the time Jesus arrived in India, Pali was heavily Sanskritized and was no longer a spoken language. Scholars say that North India recorded events in their own dialects, and that would have been true of Kashmir, certainly. Or Sanskrit could have been used. We don't know the language of the original recording of the events of Jesus' live in the East. I don't see how Pali is relevant to this question.

I've read the denunciations of Notovich, I'm not going to comment on him. However, if you don't believe that the Roerichs, who are highly reputable, found and translated the text, and published news of their finding in US newspapers, call the Roerich Museum. You don't have to take my word for it.

Right, I think they are lying. You don't want to know Genden Chopel's opinion of George Roerich.

N

[fragrant herbs]

Well, I know Ganden Chopel's views on children and tantra, and I don't think he is a good source to be bringing up.

Does this also make the swami at the Ramakrishna Order a liar when he said that he went to India and saw the text on Christ?

While the Hemis monastery didn't exist in Christ's time, the texts could have been taken there at a later time, coming from elsewhere.

So we have three different people claiming to have seen the texts, and we have monks at Hemis saying they never existed. I have known lamas to lie in order to protect something that they may not wish others to see. None of these 3 men who traveled to Tibet were related. Swami Abhedananda wrote a book on his travels, but then I have known swamis in Vedanta to lie as well.

[Malcolm]

Well, I know Ganden Chopel's views on children and tantra, and I don't think he is a good source to be bringing up.

Does this also make the swami at the Ramakrishna Order a liar when he said that he went to India and saw the text on Christ?

While the Hemis monastery didn't exist in Christ's time, the texts could have been taken there at a later time, coming from elsewhere.

You guys are pretty gullible.

N

[Malcolm]

Well, I know Ganden Chopel's views on children and tantra, and I don't think he is a good source to be bringing up.

He worked with Roerich directly.

[fragrant herbs]

And maybe I am thinking of the wrong Chopel

[Malcolm]

And maybe I am thinking of the wrong Chopel

No, you have the right one.

[Pero]

Well, I know Ganden Chopel's views on children and tantra, and I don't think he is a good source to be bringing up.

What are his views on children and tantra?

[Tenzin1]

Right, I think they are lying. You don't want to know Genden Chopel's opinion of George Roerich.
N

Well, that's one way to quash a debate-- to refuse to believe the other side's source. I do know Chopel's opinion of the Roerichs. That doesn't mean they're lying, it just means they didn't pay him fairly for his translation services. "Fragrant herbs" raises a good point: monks/lamas lie to protect secrets. Also, more recently when someone went to Hemis monastery asking about the text, they weren't told it didn't exist, they were told the abbott was away in Lhasa and had given strict instructions not to open the library while he was away.

But we digress. Here's some interesting info on the tantric front in Judea:
"Many Gnostic texts were written by (or attributed to) women. Mary Magdalene played an important role in many Gnostic writings, often being second only to Jesus in status. [...] Christian writers who attacked Gnosticism sometimes reported conflicting accounts of sexual behavior. [...] Some wrote that some Gnostic groups...were expected to remain celibate. Other Christian writers criticized other Gnostic groups for allegedly practicing ritual sex magic." http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm

Simon Magus is considered by some to be the founder of Gnosticism. He had a consort, Helena of Tyre. His sect was said by early orthodox church fathers to be one that practiced antinomianism: the doctrine that moral laws did not apply to one who had attained salvation or enlightenment (sound familiar?). The apostle Thomas (who started his own Gnostic movement, and btw, eventually relocated to Kashmir to minister to a Jewish community that was there) accepted Jesus as a teacher of mystical truth, not a savior.

The following, from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers_of ... Gnosticism
"Jesus is usually claimed as a Gnostic leader by Gnostics, as are several of his apostles, such as Thomas. Mary Magdalene is respected as a gnostic leader, and is considered to be superior to the 12 apostles in some Gnostic texts."

Just for clarification, I'm not implying that tantra in Judea necessarily came from Eastern influences. (Tantra AFAIK didn't exist in India in Jesus' time, but possibly some seeds of tantra had been planted back then, idk.) I'm only pointing out some interesting parallels between Judeo-Christian practices and Indo-Tibetan. Egypt surely knew about the Kundalini, as practices to raise the Kundalini for healing purposes go back eons in Africa, and there's some speculation that Jesus went to Alexandria during his youth and young adulthood (the "lost years"), where there was also a Buddhist community.

[Malcolm]

Right, I think they are lying. You don't want to know Genden Chopel's opinion of George Roerich.
N

Well, that's one way to quash a debate-- to refuse to believe the other side's source. I do know Chopel's opinion of the Roerichs. That doesn't mean they're lying, it just means they didn't pay him fairly for his translation services. "Fragrant herbs" raises a good point: monks/lamas lie to protect secrets. Also, more recently when someone went to Hemis monastery asking about the text, they weren't told it didn't exist, they were told the abbott was away in Lhasa and had given strict instructions not to open the library while he was away.

Excuse me? "Away in Lhasa"? Are you people actually Tibetan Buddhists?

But we digress. Here's some interesting info on the tantric front in Judea:

None of this is "tantric".

Just for clarification, I'm not implying that tantra in Judea necessarily came from Eastern influences. (Tantra AFAIK didn't exist in India in Jesus' time, but possibly some seeds of tantra had been planted back then, idk.) I'm only pointing out some interesting parallels between Judeo-Christian practices and Indo-Tibetan. Egypt surely knew about the Kundalini, as practices to raise the Kundalini for healing purposes go back eons in Africa, and there's some speculation that Jesus went to Alexandria during his youth and young adulthood (the "lost years"), where there was also a Buddhist community.

New age bullshit.

N

[Tenzin1]

Well, I think it's fascinating that tantric techniques were practiced in other parts of the world and in other religions. The Isis cult in Egypt practiced mystical sex, and it was believed that men could only come to experience the Divine through ecstatic sex with women. "A major source of spiritual illumination within the Egyptian system of alchemy is transmuted sexuality." (See any common elements here with tantra?) Some researchers say Mary Magdalene was an official in the Isis cult. ("The Magdalen Manuscript: The Alchemies of Horus and the Sex Magic of Isis" by Kenyon and Sion, 2002)

[Adamantine]

Well, I think it's fascinating that tantric techniques were practiced in other parts of the world and in other religions. The Isis cult in Egypt practiced mystical sex, and it was believed that men could only come to experience the Divine through ecstatic sex with women. "A major source of spiritual illumination within the Egyptian system of alchemy is transmuted sexuality." (See any common elements here with tantra?) Some researchers say Mary Magdalene was an official in the Isis cult. ("The Magdalen Manuscript: The Alchemies of Horus and the Sex Magic of Isis" by Kenyon and Sion, 2002)

I think Namdrol is trying to point out that just because a tradition mixes sex with spirituality or magic this doesn't make it tantric. Since we are in a Buddhist forum, Vajrayana is the synonym for tantric and it really can not be found outside of the Buddhist context. Mystical sex doesn't = tantra, at least not from a Buddhist POV. In fact there are tantric vows that would prohibit one from engaging in what other traditions may consider "mystical sex". The view may be completely different and lead one away from enlightenment, even if it sounds similar superficially. In fact, from a Vajrayana POV engaging in ordinary sex may be preferable to engaging in what you think of as 'mystical sex' from a different tradition. And without going into any other details, as a foundational rule if authentic Bodhicitta is not present then it can't even be remotely related to Vajrayana practice.

[Tenzin1]

OK, fair enough. We don't know whether a concept similar to bodhicitta was part of the practice or not. I didn't intend to say it's related to Vajrayana. Just doing a comparative study of "sacred sex" across religions. There do appear to be common elements. Maybe comparative religion and examination of commonalities isn't of interest to many Buddhists. Actually, I got the idea for the topic from another thread, where someone brought up (facetiously, I think) the question of Jesus having a consort. I thought it was worth investigating. I think he did have one.

[Malcolm]

Well, I think it's fascinating that tantric techniques...

Exist only in Indian culture.

[Enochian]

Well, I think it's fascinating that tantric techniques...

Exist only in Indian culture.

I see what you did there

I agree tantra is 100% Indian. I am reading a book on it right now by Gavin Flood PhD. And tantra certainly does NOT equal sexual practice. Tenzin1 is a compete moron.

[Malcolm]

Tenzin1 is a compete moron.

That's a little harsh.