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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:54 pm 
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I have nothing against Bon. I even told you at another thread that I believe Bonpos can attain Buddhahood.

I just avoid engaging debate with people with an agenda who take every single chance they get in this forum to spread their personal biases against Buddhism and the Dalai Lama. You use that to paint me as a fundamentalist. That's your problem. That's not a pretty thing to do, you know? I'd say check your intentions when you write, but that's up to you.

Let's not bother others any longer with this private discussion.
I wish you well and hope you progress in your path.

(small edition)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:56 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
I have nothing against Bon. I even told you at another thread that I believe Bonpos can attain Buddhahood.


To attain Buddhahood is NOT the exclusivity of Bonpos because the Yeshe Nyingpo does abide as the Sugatagarbha in every sentient beings and is encompassed by the Tatagatagarbha. That is what i do not believe that is where i am deep rooted of convinced.

But there are some who put a claim on

- The(eir) Buddha
- The philosophy
- Their adherents

Thats is their base and that is called the fundament in their thoughts and that fundament is composed out of those facts . That is what is called by me fundamentalism.


I just avoid engaging debate with people with an agenda who take every single chance they get in this forum to spread their personal biases against Buddhism and the Dalai Lama. You use that to paint me as a fundamentalist. That's your problem. That's not a pretty thing to do, you know? I'd say check your intentions when you write, but that's up to you.

A Bonpo has that agenda because he/she is trained in defending. Why, because Bonpos were persecuted several of 1100 of years. So a hard case to convince a Bonpo.The Dalai Lama did declared (1967) that Bon is the 5th Tibetan Tradition whereas it is the first. But ok a great happening after 12000 years of persecution.
For me the gelug could have done this 600 years earlier. So this is not seen as special in my eyes but more as a logical event in the west after 1959 done. Westerners are very good in history.......




Let's not bother others any longer with this private discussion.

It is not a private discussion it is done in the mood of collective and private karma. I have with Bon a collective karma and herin a private one and so do i see all and that is my world. You are also within your lineage doing the same and that can become bothering to others if we stay on our stripes which are obtained in the collective karma period (history)


I wish you well and hope you progress in your path.
That is always seen by me bi-lateral. Good wishes can be reflected like the mirror.(small edition)


(small edition)

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:56 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
I have nothing against Bon. I even told you at another thread that I believe Bonpos can attain Buddhahood.


To attain Buddhahood is NOT the exclusivity of Bonpos because the Yeshe Nyingpo does abide as the Sugatagarbha in every sentient beings and is encompassed by the Tatagatagarbha. That is where i am deep rooted of convinced.

But there are some who put a claim on:

- The(eir) Buddha
- The philosophy
- Their adherents

Thats is their base and that is called the fundament in their thoughts and that fundament is composed out of those facts . That is what is called by me fundamentalism.Not opening the door to others


I just avoid engaging debate with people with an agenda who take every single chance they get in this forum to spread their personal biases against Buddhism and the Dalai Lama. You use that to paint me as a fundamentalist. That's your problem. That's not a pretty thing to do, you know? I'd say check your intentions when you write, but that's up to you.

A Bonpo has that agenda because he/she is trained in defending. Why, because Bonpos were persecuted several of hunderds of years (1200). So a hard case to convince a Bonpo.The Dalai Lama did declared (1967) that Bon is the 5th Tibetan Tradition whereas it is the first. But ok a great happening after 1200 years of persecution.
For me the gelug could have done this 600 years earlier. So this is not seen as special in my eyes but more as a logical event in the west after 1959 done. Westerners are very good in history.......




Let's not bother others any longer with this private discussion.

It is not a private discussion it is done in the mood of collective and private karma. I have with Bon a collective karma and herin a private one and so do i see all and that is my world. You are also within your lineage doing the same and that can become bothering to others if we stay on our stripes which are obtained in the collective karma period (history)


I wish you well and hope you progress in your path.
That is always seen by me bi-lateral. Good wishes can be reflected like the mirror.(small edition)


(small edition)

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:12 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
A Bonpo has that agenda because he/she is trained in defending. Why, because Bonpos were persecuted several of 1100 of years. So a hard case to convince a Bonpo.The Dalai Lama did declared (1967) that Bon is the 5th Tibetan Tradition whereas it is the first. But ok a great happening after 12000 years of persecution.
For me the gelug could have done this 600 years earlier. So this is not seen as special in my eyes but more as a logical event in the west after 1959 done. Westerners are very good in history.......
And here was me thinking that the whole idea of Buddhist practice was to break out of stereotypical modes of behaviour, to overcome afflicitve emotions leading to negative karma and to supress identification with objects (mental in this case) that lead to the fortification of the ego.

Then you come along and tell me that Bonpa train to think in this negative fashion?

As for the inferiority complex and delusions of persecution, I think that after 44 years of official recognition (and I imagine that you had never been personally persecuted as a Bonpa, especially in the Netherlands) that it would be time to get over it.
:namaste:

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:27 am 
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Quote:
Greg Kavernos wrote:
As for the inferiority complex and delusions of persecution, I think that after 44 years of official recognition (and I imagine that you had never been personally persecuted as a Bonpa, especially in the Netherlands) that it would be time to get over it.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes Greg i never was persecuted in the Netherlands in the guise of a Bonpo and have the hope this will never happen. :D
In case i were Tibetan i would have great problems, there i am of convinced so i am happy to "be " a Dutchman by karma.
I guess"/ feel, "i was Bonpo in my previous lives. :D

But like i told before i am dwelling in the Bon Dzogchen lineage and have here so my collective karma but my private karma is in the Netherlands a la casa.

So as a collective karma person or Bonpo, i am confronted automaticly with other westerner's collective karma.
Here we have the meeting in this circle. Also others did not undergo these historical events in their actual guise / body in the west.
But many of them must act in the vision of their lineage and this is telling me that the war is not over regarding their opinions about Yungdrung Bon and their adherents the Bonpos.

But yes after 44 years we can forget that i am pro that, of course but its not up to me alone..........

Best wishes
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:34 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
But like i told before i am dwelling in the Bon Dzogchen lineage and have here so my collective karma but my private karma is in the Netherlands a la casa.

So as a collective karma person or Bonpo, i am confronted automaticly with other westerner's collective karma...
"I am dwelling", "my private karma", "a collective karma person" all of this is just grasping at (non-existent) ideas in an attempt to define the ego. If you manage to let go of this grasping then you will be liberated.
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:27 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
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kalden yungdrung wrote:

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your open minded reply.

With what kind of eyes do you see?
What you are seeing is not what i can see
Maybe i am blind
So where are my glasses?

What for someone is venom
Will be medicine for someone else
And vice versa

Please tell me how to speak and think so that i am able walking in your street(s) of views.
As soon as i know that i will made up my mind :D

Best wishes
KY


My eyes are only in my heart
it does not think that he can see
certainly one says he is blind
there is no ears to hang on glasses

sure venom is sweet and savoury
so hope you've enjoy the party
and clear therefore I will be happy

I can't tell you how you should speak
neither can I how you should think
walking in the street is so easy
when it's only to jump on feet

made up your mind
my bonny friend
cause now you know !

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:35 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
But like i told before i am dwelling in the Bon Dzogchen lineage and have here so my collective karma but my private karma is in the Netherlands a la casa.

So as a collective karma person or Bonpo, i am confronted automaticly with other westerner's collective karma...
"I am dwelling", "my private karma", "a collective karma person" all of this is just grasping at (non-existent) ideas in an attempt to define the ego. If you manage to let go of this grasping then you will be liberated.
:namaste:


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Sure karma is based on ego but i make use of words to make something clear. Without words i cannot express myself here.
I hope it' s clear that according Dzogchen karma is illusion and i am not a defender of that this karma must be maintained, in this or another guise.
But path Dzoghchen has karma because of Sutra and Tantra is inside.

So all in all i am Dzogchenpa but not Dzogchen............... :namaste:

Best wishes
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:50 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your open minded reply.

With what kind of eyes do you see?
What you are seeing is not what i can see
Maybe i am blind
So where are my glasses?

What for someone is venom
Will be medicine for someone else
And vice versa

Please tell me how to speak and think so that i am able walking in your street(s) of views.
As soon as i know that i will made up my mind :D

Best wishes
KY


My eyes are only in my heart
it does not think that he can see
certainly one says he is blind
there is no ears to hang on glasses

sure venom is sweet and savoury
so hope you've enjoy the party
and clear therefore I will be happy

I can't tell you how you should speak
neither can I how you should think
walking in the street is so easy
when it's only to jump on feet

made up your mind
my bonny friend
cause now you know !

Sönam


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply

I did made up my mind
I am aware now of unlimited freedom
Based on your pure view
Which does not see indeed with our eyes

In between
i am aware of my glasses
Because i cannot see clear
About that what is always changing


Thanks for your attention and a further nice day in the city of light

Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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