Buddhist fundamentalists?

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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Quiet Heart » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:00 am

:shrug:
Yes of course, there are Buddhist fundamentalists....but they don't call themselves that.
What they claim to be iare the "defenders of the one true path".
They want their own group to be the best group and the one and only correct group.
The same type of people are found in all religions and philosphys.
It's just human nature and you can't do much about it.
I've even been there myself before and like most human beings I have to try to avoid going there again as best I can.
The "Ego Mind" that shouts "I AM" can be pretty powerful, and it needs to be kept in check by reason and understanding.
That's a continuing daily chore.
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
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in your wife's lovely face
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:02 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:The term "fundamentalism' can be defined as the strict and literal interpretation of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion or ideology. It is often associated with god-based religions. Fundamentalists are generally regarded as being very close-minded, as opposed to 'open-minded' meaning in this context that they cannot see from another person's point of view.

Do you think this occurs among buddhists?

Have you ever known or encountered someone you would consider to be a Buddhist fundamentalist?"



Tashi delek,

Yes i have met and will meet sure fundamentalists within Buddhism, 108 % sure.
But some of them don' t know better and are stucked in their conviction and tradition.

In action did i see it also on TV, where Tibetans were beating monks out of furious fundamentalism.
I was realy shocked, i can assure you about this.
Do not want to tell here the whole story because the mods would not allow that, because we have to defend here a world of peace.
Besides that it could be seen as impolite, political manipulations, etc. So we stay better blindfolded sometimes, its better i guess for some.

The basic mind in fundamentalism is the great intollerance regarding other meanings, methods, revising of ideas etc.
Also can fundamentalism be based on undemocratic structures. This because others could damage the(ir) story or religion etc.

All in all fundamentalism is a protection to maintain a religion, philosophy and when it should be then also with war.
Mostly is there inside no democratic principle.

Further shouldn' t we point the finger to the Muslim world if in our world/ mind, does exist also fundamentalism.

Best wishes
KY
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:35 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
...
Have you ever known or encountered someone you would consider to be a Buddhist fundamentalist?"
...


being a Buddhist fundamentalist would mean having not understood the dharma teaching, therefore having totally wrong view ... could someone having wrong view considered a follower of the BuddhaDharma ?

Sönam
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:56 am

Sönam wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
...
Have you ever known or encountered someone you would consider to be a Buddhist fundamentalist?"
...


being a Buddhist fundamentalist would mean having not understood the dharma teaching, therefore having totally wrong view ... could someone having wrong view considered a follower of the BuddhaDharma ?

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Yes of course are all who are suffering of karma and took refuge in Buddhism followers of the Buddha Dharma.
Also here we have persons with little inteligence, motivations, wrong views etc.

It is in the mud where we find our sentient beings, who we maybe could help with something
But they all are in some way karmic loaded with good and bad or with many confusions about "reality" .

What is always common is the base which we all have and that is inherent Buddhahood / Sugatagarbha.
But how to be aware of it?

Mostly doesn' t a fundamentalist confess that he/she would be such a one.
They claim mostly to posess the right way, method, ethics, conviction etc.
A fundamentalist has always right, the others are here allways the bad boys.


Best wishes with your health and practice
By the way your avatar looks much more better than before. One can watch progress.
KY
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:07 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:[color]
...
Best wishes with your health and practice
By the way your avatar looks much more better than before. One can watch progress.
KY[/color]


I did'nt change it (on Dharma Wheel) ... all is a question of perception Image

but it's the intention that count ...
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:16 am

Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:[color]
...
Best wishes with your health and practice
By the way your avatar looks much more better than before. One can watch progress.
KY[/color]


I did'nt change it (on Dharma Wheel) ... all is a question of perception Image

but it's the intention that count ...
Sönam




Tashi delek,

Then i was right?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:47 pm

If I throw a glass of crystal to a wall, the glass will shatter. Saying that a crystal glass shatters when one throws if to a wall, is not being a fundamentalist.
It's stating a fact.
It's very important that we don't take fundamentalism to be everything that is not total relativism.
So, fundamentalism, and this is my opinion, is sticking unreasonably to an idea that can't be supported. For instance, if I say a)"I believe in God", b)"There's no God beyond my God, c)"Everyone who doesn't believe in my God is inferior", I'm being a fundamentalist. When? After a). I can believe in whatever I want. Yet, I can't prove to others that my God exists, so I can't expect them to believe in him. So, from then on, it's speculation. If I decide to take speculation as a fact and impose it to others, I'm a fundamentalist.
However not that we are dealing with beliefs that can't be tested, not even by oneself. So there's no way to disprove them. It's a matter of choice.
On the other hand, if I say that a glass will shatter when I'll throw it to a wall, I can prove it to others. And I can say that not believing such is only understandable if someone doesn't know what's a glass and a wall. Otherwise, nobody will dispute such statement, even if such person never actually saw a glass shattering when hitting a wall.
A little more subtle is talking about less gross phenomena. For instance, mental phenomena. If I say that by meditation such and such changes in one's mind will occur, that is not easy to show to a 3rd person. Yet, with the correct method, one can test it for oneself.
Do you get my point?
Of course there's fundamentalism in Buddhism. In the end, fundamentalism exists where people insist that things that can only be taken on faith should be accepted by everyone as facts, I guess.
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:00 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Of course there's fundamentalism in Buddhism. In the end, fundamentalism exists where people insist that things that can only be taken on faith should be accepted by everyone as facts, I guess.


Tashi delek,

Do you think that because of taken faith in Buddhism there does exist fundamentalism and that should be accepted as facts?
Further do i see fundamentalism more as fear. And out of fear comes the mara of protection.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:44 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Of course there's fundamentalism in Buddhism. In the end, fundamentalism exists where people insist that things that can only be taken on faith should be accepted by everyone as facts, I guess.


Tashi delek,

Do you think that because of taken faith in Buddhism there does exist fundamentalism and that should be accepted as facts?
Further do i see fundamentalism more as fear. And out of fear comes the mara of protection.

Best wishes
KY

I don't understand your question.
My idea of fundamentalism is for instance, me imposing my faith to you. You are a Bonpo, right? I can think your path leads nowhere (which I don't), but the moment I start impinging that idea to you, stating articles of faith instead of facts as if they were facts and I try to inferiorize you because of your school, that makes me a fundamentalist.

Now, that doesn't mean I can't recognize my school as being better than yours. If I though otherwise, I'd be following yours, not mine. At least I think mine is more adequate to my needs (usually that's how I see it). What I can't do is trying to convert you, especially if such attempt is based on lies, half truths and what not. At most I may explain my point of view to you, but then you are free to do what you want without me trying to hurt you somehow because of our disagreement.

See the difference? For instance, I consider Dzogchen above any other system. Still, I don't go around saying that Dzogchen is the best practice for all and all that don't practice aren't my equals (I mean, there are people far kinder than me that don't even have a religion).
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:31 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Of course there's fundamentalism in Buddhism. In the end, fundamentalism exists where people insist that things that can only be taken on faith should be accepted by everyone as facts, I guess.


Tashi delek,

Do you think that because of taken faith in Buddhism there does exist fundamentalism and that should be accepted as facts?
Further do i see fundamentalism more as fear. And out of fear comes the mara of protection.

Best wishes
KY




I don't understand your question.


Tashi delek,

What don't you understand?

Best wishes
KY
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:53 pm

"Do you think that because of taken faith in Buddhism there does exist fundamentalism and that should be accepted as facts?"

I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker, but I have no clue about what you're trying to ask. This sentence doesn't make sense...
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:19 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:"Do you think that because of taken faith in Buddhism there does exist fundamentalism and that should be accepted as facts?"

I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker, but I have no clue about what you're trying to ask. This sentence doesn't make sense...


I don't understand either, but will offer this possible interpretation:

"Do you think that because people accept (unprovable) things in Buddhism as facts, that this is fundamentalism? "
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:57 am

If that's what he means, I have answered that already in a previous post. :smile:
Another interpretation was suggested via PM and perhaps what he wants to know if I find that accepting the traditional view of Buddhism would be fundamentalism. I also answered that implicitly in one of my previous posts, I think.
Anyway, perhaps if kalden clarified his idea I could answer him more concretely. Anyway, this is just my opinion, so nothing of great importance! :lol:
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:52 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:Dechen Norbu wrote:
Of course there's fundamentalism in Buddhism. In the end, fundamentalism exists where people insist that things that can only be taken on faith should be accepted by everyone as facts, I guess.



Tashi delek,

Well, you did confirmed in your earlier posts, there would be fundamentalism inside Buddhism.

- Then i am interested to know, where does this fundamentalism appear inside " Buddhism " ?
- What is meant here with " Buddhism " by you, Dorje Thekpa and Bon or only Dorje Thekpa
- What can be done to avoid " fundamentalism " inside Buddhism
- Regarding last mentioned point, can a certain form of democracy avoid fundamentalism?

Best wishes
KY
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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:31 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Well, you did confirmed in your earlier posts, there would be fundamentalism inside Buddhism.

There are fundamentalists everywhere. It's a human trait, sadly. Buddhism doesn't incite such behavior, though.

- Then i am interested to know, where does this fundamentalism appear inside " Buddhism " ?

It appears wherever you have someone acting as a fundamentalist. Mainly it's caused by poor intellectual formation and ultimately lack of practice. When we aren't enlightened and spend more time arguing and reinforcing our identities than doing real practice, we risk becoming fundamentalists. We take excess of zeal for true commitment.

- What is meant here with " Buddhism " by you, Dorje Thekpa and Bon or only Dorje Thekpa

Buddhayana, not only Vajrayana.

- What can be done to avoid " fundamentalism " inside Buddhism

For one, minding one's business. But there are many things that can be done that can be summarized by the word "practice".

- Regarding last mentioned point, can a certain form of democracy avoid fundamentalism?

If you are trying to pull some agenda regarding how Tibet should be ruled and was ruled, the role of HH the Dalai Lama and so on and so forth, I will stop answering you.
Don't take me for a fool. I can see what you're doing and have been doing for a while now.
You and one or two Bonpos in this forum only seem to be interested about pushing your agendas. While promoting Bon, you criticize, openly, implicitly or in a camouflaged fashion HH the Dalai Lama and Buddhism in general. It's intellectually dishonest from you guys.

What solves the problem of fundamentalism is a change in the mind and hearts of each individual. Political systems are but temporary patches, not definitive solutions.
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:15 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
If you are trying to pull some agenda regarding how Tibet should be ruled and was ruled, the role of HH the Dalai Lama and so on and so forth, I will stop answering you.
Don't take me for a fool. I can see what you're doing and have been doing for a while now.
You and one or two Bonpos in this forum only seem to be interested about pushing your agendas. While promoting Bon, you criticize, openly, implicitly or in a camouflaged fashion HH the Dalai Lama and Buddhism in general. It's intellectually dishonest from you guys.



Tashi delek,

- Be tranquil, nobody does make a try to brainwash you / influence you / made up your mind etc.
- This is a public forum and here one can make questions and statements when done polite of course. Are you polite in telling others are cowards etc.?
- Yes you have eyes and can watch what others are doing, but how does one see objects?
- Are you free of pushing? Well that is also what i could see in you but i see here something else.
- Yes as a Bonpo i do promote Bon and therefore we have the Bon forum, very good, i like that
- Like i told before and see please clear and do not make projections of enemies, for me is the Dalai Lama general seen ok, but with some things do i have problems and the main problem i have is that a monk does not belong in the political affairs. Please look at the Tibetan history books, in sofar there is one....
- Furhter do we all respect all Tibetan traditions and all "1000000000000000000000000" Buddhas in the "Universe" but according some of you are Bonpos no Buddhist
because of name copyrights (Fundamentalism)


I have so the meaning that a certain free opinion of Bonpos is still not granted by people like you and that is very sad in the year 2011.
Do not forget we are western people and raised by democratic principles, so it is hard to understand the Tibetan political affairs or the church in the state.

May we have that problem?

Best wishes
KY
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:40 pm

I completely agree with Dechen :

Don't take me for a fool. I can see what you're doing and have been doing for a while now.
You and one or two Bonpos in this forum only seem to be interested about pushing your agendas. While promoting Bon, you criticize, openly, implicitly or in a camouflaged fashion HH the Dalai Lama and Buddhism in general.


even after having read your answer kalden, I only see there an agenda ... your supposed very sophisticated and very syrupy approach contains only venom. You move like on a chess board.
My spontaneous intuitivity (I'm not a scholar) told me it is so ... and I'm most often right !

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:06 pm

Kalden, I won't answer all that verbosity because I don't waste my time on thugs who come here with blades wrapped in velvet cloths.
Your point is always the same and you try to steer discussions towards the same goal, favoring your personal agenda while you should be respectful enough to appreciatively use the Bon forum while keeping in mind that you are in a Buddhist board.

I favor an open and honest dialogue between Bon and Buddhism.
Hypocrisy just isn't my game, so don't bother me with questions like that. They don't deserve any answer. At most I'll comment your posts when I see fit.
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:51 pm

Sönam wrote:I completely agree with Dechen :

Don't take me for a fool. I can see what you're doing and have been doing for a while now.
You and one or two Bonpos in this forum only seem to be interested about pushing your agendas. While promoting Bon, you criticize, openly, implicitly or in a camouflaged fashion HH the Dalai Lama and Buddhism in general.


even after having read your answer kalden, I only see there an agenda ... your supposed very sophisticated and very syrupy approach contains only venom. You move like on a chess board.
My spontaneous intuitivity (I'm not a scholar) told me it is so ... and I'm most often right !

Sönam


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your open minded reply.

With what kind of eyes do you see?
What you are seeing is not what i can see
Maybe i am blind
So where are my glasses?

What for someone is venom
Will be medicine for someone else
And vice versa

Please tell me how to speak and think so that i am able walking in your street(s) of views.
As soon as i know that i will made up my mind :D

Best wishes
KY
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:07 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Kalden, I won't answer all that verbosity because I don't waste my time on thugs who come here with blades wrapped in velvet cloths.
Your point is always the same and you try to steer discussions towards the same goal, favoring your personal agenda while you should be respectful enough to appreciatively use the Bon forum while keeping in mind that you are in a Buddhist board.

I favor an open and honest dialogue between Bon and Buddhism.
Hypocrisy just isn't my game, so don't bother me with questions like that. They don't deserve any answer. At most I'll comment your posts when I see fit.



Tashi delek, :)

Thanks for your open minded replies.
I can learn a lot from your postings here as a scholar in the Tibetan Traditions. I am never too old for learning and i am ready to learn from everybody. You are one of my best teachers in the world of illusions. This is realy THE praxis for me. :bow:

Further:
What does count for me that is counting for you too, i guess.
Do i bother you with hypocrism and fundamentalism?
Are you also a little bit more because of your better opinion and the others don't deserve therefore your coockies?
Please let me see with your eyes then i could have a sound sleep tonight

As a last want i to tell you that a Buddhist forum is also a Bon forum because we Bonpos are Buddhists in the sense we have also a non copyright Buddha. So your answer is seen by me as fundamentalism and yes i will meet as Bonpo this mentality for 108% sure in the future. I can assure you that to my friends, do belong many Nyingmapas, with whom i can maintain shaking hands, they do respect my status anyway and don't discriminate.

Are they also "mislead" by my sayings and opinions?

I hope so that you will one time appreciate some postings from me here in the future so that i can feel myself happier then i am now at the moment. :D

Untill then best wishes with your personal opinions and views

KY
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