Conventions contrary to scripture.

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 19, 2011 10:00 pm

Namdrol wrote:

That is Surya Suddhanta. Not really in step with Buddhist cycles of time. In any case, it is obviously the Kali Yuga now.


Sure, but at what point did Buddhists start recognizing a kaliyuga to begin with? There is no mention made of kaliyuga anywhere in East Asian Buddhism, though the idea is clearly there in Tibetan Buddhism. Indian time cycles (kaliyuga, satyayuga, etc...) seem to have been adopted by Buddhists rather than innovated by them. The Buddha is not on record having taught them either.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5571
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby LastLegend » Thu May 19, 2011 10:25 pm

If human beings are good, then Buddhism will be stable. If human beings are bad, Buddhism will be declining.

Thank for reading
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
User avatar
LastLegend
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Astus » Fri May 20, 2011 11:00 am

Without a monastic community there are priests/ministers/brahmanas. Japan is an example in general, Jodo Shinshu in particular. Are priests better than monks to preserve and spread the Dharma?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4127
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Indrajala » Fri May 20, 2011 11:02 am

Astus wrote:Without a monastic community there are priests/ministers/brahmanas. Japan is an example in general, Jodo Shinshu in particular. Are priests better than monks to preserve and spread the Dharma?


I don't think a hereditary priesthood works all that well. It becomes a profession rather than a calling.

The same thing happens in communities with monks, though not as much.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5571
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Astus » Fri May 20, 2011 11:15 am

Huseng wrote:I don't think a hereditary priesthood works all that well. It becomes a profession rather than a calling.

The same thing happens in communities with monks, though not as much.


It doesn't have to be hereditary. Could be like Catholic priests (western or eastern), or Protestant ministers, or any other form. There could be universities to qualify who can be a priest, but then it would also mean that those who lack the financial background will have no chance (a reason for monasticism, or scholarship).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4127
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 2:33 pm

Huseng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

That is Surya Suddhanta. Not really in step with Buddhist cycles of time. In any case, it is obviously the Kali Yuga now.


Sure, but at what point did Buddhists start recognizing a kaliyuga to begin with? There is no mention made of kaliyuga anywhere in East Asian Buddhism, though the idea is clearly there in Tibetan Buddhism. Indian time cycles (kaliyuga, satyayuga, etc...) seem to have been adopted by Buddhists rather than innovated by them. The Buddha is not on record having taught them either.



We generally consider in Tibetan Buddhism the kali yuga more or less starts with the last 500 years of the Dharma. We term this time period, rtsod ldan, "the time of war".

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Anders » Fri May 20, 2011 3:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:We have to be realistic.


'Being realistic' would tend to imply not taking prophecies or ancient historical classification as established fact. But you seem to be taking these as your baseline for your monastic prescription.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
Anders
 
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 5:02 pm

Anders Honore wrote:
Namdrol wrote:We have to be realistic.


'Being realistic' would tend to imply not taking prophecies or ancient historical classification as established fact. But you seem to be taking these as your baseline for your monastic prescription.



When I read ancient predictions attributed to Padmsambhava and so on, I see them born out in the reality of our world. People think that the mass genocides of the 20th century, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Armenian genocide, etc. cannot happen again. They can, and they will.

We have strange new diseases, etc. I could go on but it would be boring.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Indrajala » Fri May 20, 2011 5:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:When I read ancient predictions attributed to Padmsambhava and so on, I see them born out in the reality of our world. People think that the mass genocides of the 20th century, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Armenian genocide, etc. cannot happen again. They can, and they will.

We have strange new diseases, etc. I could go on but it would be boring.


Is this in reference to the text outlined here?

http://www.khandro.net/stupa_Boudhnath_KD.htm#kaliyuga
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5571
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 5:30 pm

Huseng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:When I read ancient predictions attributed to Padmsambhava and so on, I see them born out in the reality of our world. People think that the mass genocides of the 20th century, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Armenian genocide, etc. cannot happen again. They can, and they will.

We have strange new diseases, etc. I could go on but it would be boring.


Is this in reference to the text outlined here?

http://www.khandro.net/stupa_Boudhnath_KD.htm#kaliyuga



Not this specific one, but yes.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Indrajala » Fri May 20, 2011 5:33 pm

Namdrol wrote:Not this specific one, but yes.


What is your take on this part?

When religious duties are forgotten, spirits of darkness previously controlled by ritual power are unloosed, and frenziedly govern the mind of whatever being they possess. Spirits of vindictive power possess monks; spirits of egoistic wickedness possess the mantradhara or magician; spirits of disease possess the Bon Priest; enchanting spirits causing disease possess men; grasping, quarreling spirits possess women; spirits of wantonness possess maidens; spirits of depravity possess nuns; spirits of rebellion and malice possess children; every man, woman and child in the country becomes possessed by uncontrollable forces of darkness.


You've said that in Tibetan medicine spirits can be the cause of illness. In the Tibetan medicine community, is there any sense that such cases are more common than they used to be?
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5571
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 5:46 pm

Huseng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

You've said that in Tibetan medicine spirits can be the cause of illness. In the Tibetan medicine community, is there any sense that such cases are more common than they used to be?



Yes definitely.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby kirtu » Fri May 20, 2011 6:00 pm

Namdrol wrote:Especially in this era, bhikṣus and bhikṣunis are museum pieces.

This is the Kali Yuga, monasticism is obsolete.


No and no. Pure monasticism in the Kali Yuga esp. is vital to the survival of Buddhism. And anyway, it is useful for the monastics themselves because of the vast accumulation of merit.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4129
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 6:20 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Especially in this era, bhikṣus and bhikṣunis are museum pieces.

This is the Kali Yuga, monasticism is obsolete.


No and no. Pure monasticism in the Kali Yuga esp. is vital to the survival of Buddhism. And anyway, it is useful for the monastics themselves because of the vast accumulation of merit.

Kirt



In case you did not remember, sutric Buddhism as a religion has an expiration date. This is not true of Dzogchen and tantric teachings however. Also Dzogchen and tantric teachings do not require a monastic Sangha for support. During most eons when Dzogchen was taught, it was taught separately from any kind of sutric teaching at all.

As I said however, people are free -- if they want to spend their money supporting monasteries, that is their business. It is not a bad thing to do, of course. I just don't really see much hope in it.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby kirtu » Fri May 20, 2011 7:03 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Especially in this era, bhikṣus and bhikṣunis are museum pieces.

This is the Kali Yuga, monasticism is obsolete.


No and no. Pure monasticism in the Kali Yuga esp. is vital to the survival of Buddhism. And anyway, it is useful for the monastics themselves because of the vast accumulation of merit.

Kirt



In case you did not remember, sutric Buddhism as a religion has an expiration date.


Sure I remember. Care to show me the expiration date? Sutra can be read variously on this point.

This is not true of Dzogchen and tantric teachings however. Also Dzogchen and tantric teachings do not require a monastic Sangha for support. During most eons when Dzogchen was taught, it was taught separately from any kind of sutric teaching at all.

As I said however, people are free -- if they want to spend their money supporting monasteries, that is their business. It is not a bad thing to do, of course. I just don't really see much hope in it.


Well we can establish various forms of Buddhist communities. A revival of the tradition of Chandragomin in very much in order, IMO. Having said that, the merit is still exceeded by monastics and people very much need merit.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4129
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby kirtu » Fri May 20, 2011 7:09 pm

LastLegend wrote:If human beings are good, then Buddhism will be stable. If human beings are bad, Buddhism will be declining.


Well lots of human beings are bad. And lots of Buddhists are really following through.

Surya Das (not everyone's cup of tea I admit) has said that perhaps one of the reasons the Nazi's conducted genocide was to eliminate the wisdom of the Jewish Orthodox and the Hassidim in particular. Similarly Stalin, Pol Pot, the genocide against American Indians, etc. can be framed in this light. If evil forces are able to eliminate or pervert wisdom from spiritual streams then the entire world can be flooded with evil.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4129
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby kirtu » Fri May 20, 2011 7:14 pm

Namdrol wrote:Paths of renunciation cannot bear fruit in the Kaliyuga. At best, it is a show for posterity.


This is the case for most people but most people are not going to even raise interest in entering the sangha. For those that do their practice can be very beneficial for themselves and for others who have a similar bent but haven't decided to enter the sangha. And they can remind other people to be virtuous and just remind them of positive values.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4129
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 7:14 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sure I remember. Care to show me the expiration date? Sutra can be read variously on this point.


About 2500 years.



A revival of the tradition of Chandragomin in very much in order, IMO.




The gomi ordination never existed in Tibetan Buddhism or Mulasarvastivada. There is no tradition for it, do cannot be revived.


Having said that, the merit is still exceeded by monastics and people very much need merit.
Kirt


People accumulate the most merit by meditating correctly.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 7:16 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Paths of renunciation cannot bear fruit in the Kaliyuga. At best, it is a show for posterity.


This is the case for most people but most people are not going to even raise interest in entering the sangha. For those that do their practice can be very beneficial for themselves and for others who have a similar bent but haven't decided to enter the sangha. And they can remind other people to be virtuous and just remind them of positive values.

Kirt



Maybe. Most of the people I know who take monastic vows just take vows to create a lack of merit since they cannot keep their vows.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.

Postby kirtu » Fri May 20, 2011 7:18 pm

Namdrol wrote:If someone really has the wish to be a bhikṣu or a bhikṣuni, they can do that. But in the end, it will not prevent the predicted disappearance of Shakyamuni's Dharma sasana.


Well no, but as Gelek Rinpoche said there will be ups and downs before the Dharma actually disappears.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4129
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 9 guests

>