Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sat May 07, 2011 1:17 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
That's the six million dollar question. In other words, there is no such account. The reason we do not utilize this talent is because we are mistaking the illusion for fact. It is only a misdiscrimination. A mistaken distinction does not exist. So it can't cease or be purified. This is crucial. We can say, "I no longer make this distinction, so I purified this thought," but that is just saying something without referring to anything. So it's not meaningless. We do understand a horn on a hare, but it is referenceless. Then a nonreferencing mind is the Buddha in the decaying lotus, the true meaningfulness.


You still have not resolved the issue. How can Buddhas mistake illusions for facts?

Either you are not a Buddha because you made a mistake, or Buddhas make mistakes.


That's another six million dollar question. There is no mistake, which is what I meant by a misdiscrimination being nonreferencable. This is beyond logic, which is why the Buddha has to resort to these examples. Here's another example. If you draw a circle on a chalkboard, where is the line that distinguishes the chalk from the board? It's not in the board and it's not in the chalk. You can say it's in your mind, but how? Sure you can say so, but the reality is there is no distinction to be found. This is what the Lankavatara Sutra means when the Buddha says [paraphrasing] "you think there's a difference between buddhas and sentient beings? Show me your discrimination!" Even the example of a mirage, illusion, etc., doesn't capture it. It's also like the Gandharva city, like totally nowhere. Ati's realization is that everything is just like this, apparently appearing while not really appearing at all. The implication is that the totality of anything mind can be is wide open to the infinitely possible appearances. That is its current state. There is no question of *becoming* omniscient. Omniscience, like everything else, is not coming or going. It's already. Grasping is nonexistent. Grasper is nonexistent. Buddha is not something to be located or created. Therefore it cannot be gained or destroyed.

It's like being focused on the letters in a book while sitting on an open plane. You do really and actually in fact do see all around you, but you are focusing on a narrow scope. If a buffalo stampedes you, it's not because you didn't see it. You just ignored it what you did see. Ignoring is not a something. It is this misdirection of the mind.

It's like Image.

Whether you see a rabbit or a duck is just slight of hand.



So yes, the total field of emptiness has both ignorance and buddhahood.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sat May 07, 2011 1:30 am

PS While a lot of translations by Westerners suck for many reasons. Cho sku [?] I believe is the Tibetan term often translated as "gestalt." This is a useful word, because the difference between a buddha and a sentient being is just a gestalt.
Image
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 07, 2011 2:01 am

adinatha wrote:
So yes, the total field of emptiness has both ignorance and buddhahood.


You did not answer the question:

Either you are not a Buddha because you made a mistake, or Buddhas make mistakes.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sat May 07, 2011 7:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
So yes, the total field of emptiness has both ignorance and buddhahood.


You did not answer the question:

Either you are not a Buddha because you made a mistake, or Buddhas make mistakes.


Your question is a nonstarter, because it's limited to temporal contingent logic. Your question assumes a before and after or a yes or no. Before you can become a buddha you have to stop making a mistake. Or you were a buddha, but then you made a mistake. But there is no before or after, no sentient beings or buddha.

Look at the faces and vase gestalt. Which comes first the face on the left, the face on the right or the vase in the middle? Are they simultaneous or none at all? Is black first or white? Is the vase correct and the faces incorrect or vice versa? Is it right to not make these discriminations and wrong to do so? Where is the vase or faces, really? So do you actually see these somewhere? These discriminations are no where and yet there somehow; that's the unavoidable reality. It is a most profound and deep mystery. Pure magical display. But it's not a mistake. Even the discriminations are just like the gestalt display, absent yet apparent.

A Buddha doesn't conceptualize these forms or a buddha seer, and just leaves it all be. Yet the whole gestalt of emptiness and forms appears magically. Once you see how this is the case, you will be in the Ati dimension of instant intuition. A sentient being sees this or that and holds to it. But it's not right or wrong. Consistently trying to hold to one side would go against its real nature, and would result in a consistent exertion of energy that results in suffering. A sentient being isn't making a mistake; it's a suffering. But just like there are two faces, there is suffering and nirvana.

Perception's fact is not touched by time or logic. Using the word as a verb instead of a noun, "to buddha" is to see the gestalt-like quality of all appearances and possibilities, where there is arising of form, no arising of form, seeing and no seer, all at once and not at all, just pure magical display with no trace of a source. Appearance is no appearance.

In the example of the Buddha inside the decaying lotus. You see the Buddha inside the decaying lotus. The decaying lotus is not hiding the buddha. The decaying lotus is luminous too. Even though the lotus emits a foul odor, there's buddha. In the example of Indra's face reflecting in all realms, every reflection is this gestalt-like buddhahood in action. You have to see that emptiness encompasses both extremes of ignorant sentient being and omniscient buddhahood. It is one total tathagatagarbha.

The this vision is the fruit which is inseparable from bliss and equanimity. It's not possibly the wrong path, because it is the end of the path. Once understood, there's nothing left to do, one's instant intuition is inseparable from omniscience and sentient beings are liberated in natural course.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 08, 2011 2:50 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
So yes, the total field of emptiness has both ignorance and buddhahood.


You did not answer the question:

Either you are not a Buddha because you made a mistake, or Buddhas make mistakes.


Your question is a nonstarter, because it's limited to temporal contingent logic. Your question assumes a before and after or a yes or no. Before you can become a buddha you have to stop making a mistake. Or you were a buddha, but then you made a mistake. But there is no before or after, no sentient beings or buddha.

Look at the faces and vase gestalt. Which comes first the face on the left, the face on the right or the vase in the middle? Are they simultaneous or none at all? Is black first or white? Is the vase correct and the faces incorrect or vice versa? Is it right to not make these discriminations and wrong to do so? Where is the vase or faces, really? So do you actually see these somewhere? These discriminations are no where and yet there somehow; that's the unavoidable reality. It is a most profound and deep mystery. Pure magical display. But it's not a mistake. Even the discriminations are just like the gestalt display, absent yet apparent.

A Buddha doesn't conceptualize these forms or a buddha seer, and just leaves it all be. Yet the whole gestalt of emptiness and forms appears magically. Once you see how this is the case, you will be in the Ati dimension of instant intuition. A sentient being sees this or that and holds to it. But it's not right or wrong. Consistently trying to hold to one side would go against its real nature, and would result in a consistent exertion of energy that results in suffering. A sentient being isn't making a mistake; it's a suffering. But just like there are two faces, there is suffering and nirvana.

Perception's fact is not touched by time or logic. Using the word as a verb instead of a noun, "to buddha" is to see the gestalt-like quality of all appearances and possibilities, where there is arising of form, no arising of form, seeing and no seer, all at once and not at all, just pure magical display with no trace of a source. Appearance is no appearance.

In the example of the Buddha inside the decaying lotus. You see the Buddha inside the decaying lotus. The decaying lotus is not hiding the buddha. The decaying lotus is luminous too. Even though the lotus emits a foul odor, there's buddha. In the example of Indra's face reflecting in all realms, every reflection is this gestalt-like buddhahood in action. You have to see that emptiness encompasses both extremes of ignorant sentient being and omniscient buddhahood. It is one total tathagatagarbha.

The this vision is the fruit which is inseparable from bliss and equanimity. It's not possibly the wrong path, because it is the end of the path. Once understood, there's nothing left to do, one's instant intuition is inseparable from omniscience and sentient beings are liberated in natural course.



You can't answer the question because you have not faced the fact that even Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance. The answer is that Buddhas cannot make mistakes, and this is why we cannot take the symbols in Uttaratantra literally.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sun May 08, 2011 4:11 am

Namdrol wrote:You can't answer the question because you have not faced the fact that even Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance. The answer is that Buddhas cannot make mistakes, and this is why we cannot take the symbols in Uttaratantra literally.


Faced the fact? How do you take a gestalt literally or nonliterally? It's just a wrong approach altogether. There's no timeline. Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance? Ummm... primordially pure. Buddhahood has no beginning. Was that perhaps a typo? You are Dzogchenpa right? I'm talking about an intuitive truth, not a logical one. The logical one is a sheep being eaten by a lion.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 08, 2011 9:19 am

It seems to me that the discussion in the current thread and in this thread here viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3964 arise due to a single underlying or basic "problem" with Mahayana theory: The idea that the Buddha is a divine being that manifested in order to "play" the role of a human in order to teach us the true path to liberation.

Theravadra bypasses all this convolution by simply saying that the Buddha was born a human after accumulating merit and wisdom over countless lifetimes and then became enlightened here and "now" and taught the path to enlightenment. Thus we too, through the accumulation of wisdom and merit plus practice can also reach the state of permanent liberation from samsara (though not Buddhahood, well not in this world system anyway).

When you introduce this idea of a divine origin one then has to come up with a system that desciribes how this divine origin also exists in all sentient beings (otherwise they will be incapable of reaching enlightenment). This then leads into reams of explanations around concepts such as: Why, since all sentient beings possess a divine nature, are we still not enlightened? Is this divine nature a substance, a quality, a process, ad nauseum...? Is this quality eternal or is it cultured? Since form arises from ignorance (according to dependent origination) how can a being free from ignorance produce form? Is ignorance an eternal quality? Is enlightenment an eternal state? Can bodhisattvas revert? Are arhats truly enlightened? Ignorance and enlightenment are seperate. Ignorance and enlightenment are one. Ignorance and enlightenment are two but they are united in one. Blah, blah, blah...

84,000 Dharma doors and we fall on the security model with 10 different locks!
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun May 08, 2011 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 08, 2011 1:02 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You can't answer the question because you have not faced the fact that even Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance. The answer is that Buddhas cannot make mistakes, and this is why we cannot take the symbols in Uttaratantra literally.


Faced the fact? How do you take a gestalt literally or nonliterally? It's just a wrong approach altogether. There's no timeline. Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance? Ummm... primordially pure. Buddhahood has no beginning. Was that perhaps a typo? You are Dzogchenpa right? I'm talking about an intuitive truth, not a logical one. The logical one is a sheep being eaten by a lion.


You need to study Samantabhadra's liberation then you will understand things a little better.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sun May 08, 2011 4:29 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You can't answer the question because you have not faced the fact that even Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance. The answer is that Buddhas cannot make mistakes, and this is why we cannot take the symbols in Uttaratantra literally.


Faced the fact? How do you take a gestalt literally or nonliterally? It's just a wrong approach altogether. There's no timeline. Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance? Ummm... primordially pure. Buddhahood has no beginning. Was that perhaps a typo? You are Dzogchenpa right? I'm talking about an intuitive truth, not a logical one. The logical one is a sheep being eaten by a lion.


You need to study Samantabhadra's liberation then you will understand things a little better.


Thank you for your concern for my understanding and for your support. I will take this under advisement and give it the due consideration it deserves.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 08, 2011 9:44 pm

adinatha wrote:
Thank you for your concern for my understanding and for your support. I will take this under advisement and give it the due consideration it deserves.


Generally speaking, the liberation of Samantabhadra and the delusion of sentient beings is found among classical eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyingthig.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Sun May 08, 2011 11:32 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Thank you for your concern for my understanding and for your support. I will take this under advisement and give it the due consideration it deserves.


Generally speaking, the liberation of Samantabhadra and the delusion of sentient beings is found among classical eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyingthig.


Thank you for continuing this discussion.

Primordial Buddha: beginningless vidya. Youthful vase body. Five lights. Self-sprung simultaneous appearances of samsara and nirvana. Samsara spontaneously emptied because no three times, due to immediate responsiveness of dharmakaya.

Vidya arises simultaneously with 8 vijnana. A moment of nonapprehension: sentient being. A moment of apprehension: Samantabhadra. No two moments, even though deluded discriminating mind sees two moments and re-liberation.

Key point: innate enlightenment arises simultaneously with innate ignorance. The nondiscrimination of appearances is the self-appearance of enlightenment. A discrimination never was: the impossibility of turning back and the possibility of complete and perfect buddhahood.

A gem where each facet is an appearance of samsara or nirvana. No top or bottom. No beginning or end. Samsara: merely the play, the basis for compassionate response, the display of preciousness and meaningfulness in the total sphere of appearances and possibilities where suffering is redeemed with irreducible virtues.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 3:23 pm

adinatha wrote:Primordial Buddha: beginningless vidya. Youthful vase body. Five lights. Self-sprung simultaneous appearances of samsara and nirvana. Samsara spontaneously emptied because no three times, due to immediate responsiveness of dharmakaya.



Ok, it is important to understand three things: the general original basis, the reality of the basis, and how ignorance manifests. In addition to that it is necessary to know that Garab Dorje's commentary on the Single Son of the Buddha's tantras supplies a necessary understanding I will address below at the section on the arising of the basis.

The Unwritten Tantra (Yi ge med pa describes how the general original basis exists:

“There is no object to investigate within the view of self-originated wisdom: nothing went before, nothing happens later, nothing is present now at all. Action does not exist. Traces do not exist. Ignorance does not exist. Mind does not exist. Discriminating wisdom does not exist. Samsara does not exist. Nirvana does not exist. Even vidyā itself does not exist i.e. nothing at all appears in wisdom. That arose from not grasping anything.”

This is the state of original purity, The Blazing Lamp says:
Within initial original purity
the nature is like so:
not made by anyone, manifesting naturally,
the nature is already just so.


In this state, The Rosary of Pearls states:
The mere term delusion cannot be described
within the original purity of the initial state,
likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning.


The Heart Mirror states “All phenomena of the basis must be understood as the trio of essence, nature and compassion. All phenomena of the essence must be understood as emptiness. All phenomena of the nature must be understood as luminosity. All phenomena of compassion must be understood as pervading all sentient beings.

So, of course, there must be essence, nature and compassion, timelessly present as the basis. Without these wisdoms, there can be no nirvana and no samsara. We can term these three "sugatagarbha" if we like. Padmasambhava states in the Clear Mirror:

Those three wisdoms pervade Samantabhadra and sentient beings down to the tiniest creature without any discrimination of good or bad, high or low.

Since these three wisdoms are themselves not established in anyway at all, we can be sure we are free from eternalism. Since these three natures always appear, we are free from annihilationism.

Vidya arises simultaneously with 8 vijnana. A moment of nonapprehension: sentient being. A moment of apprehension: Samantabhadra. No two moments, even though deluded discriminating mind sees two moments and re-liberation.


In the system of the Dzogchen Nyinghig three causes of ignorance are described -- those three are essence, nature and compassion. This is why there are three ignorances in this system. The system of explanation of Gongpa Zangthal is a little different, with only two ignorances -- we will continue with the Dzogchen Nyinthig system.

According to Garab Dorje, prior to the arising of the basis which is latent during the dark eon interval, nevertheless there are traces of affliction and action remaining from the previous eon. Because of these traces, the basis is stirred, the five lights appear and so on (this is why the Dzogcgen doctrine of two different kinds of Buddhahood is critical -- the first, the buddhahood that reverts the basis is the buddhahood asserted by all lower vehicles. The buddhahood that does not revert to the basis is the preserve of only Dzogchen).

The Gongpa Zangthal cycle supplies that during the arising of basis there is a neutral awareness (shes pa lung ma bstan) in the basis that does not recognize itself. This non-recognition is the innate ignorance. When this neutral awareness cognizes the five lights there is a dividing line between nirvana and samsara. When a neutral awareness recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own appearances it is is prajñā and is immediately liberated. That is Samantabhadra. A neutral awareness that does not recognize appearances as its own appearances immediately is the imputing ignorance, and samsara begins (again) because subject and object is imputed. This is all very clearly explained in detail in the eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyinthig. This is also clearly explained by Khenpo Ngawang Palzang.

Key point: innate enlightenment arises simultaneously with innate ignorance.


After the basis arises, innate ignorance is first and even Samantabhadra has it. There is period where a neutral awareness does not recognize itself in anyway. That is the innate ignorance. It (the neutral awareness) can only recognize itself through the display of five lights. When it recognizes that display as its own display, then this is the liberation of Samantabhadra without the performance of an iota of virtue. We on the other hand did not recognize these five lights as our own display, and for us, samsara began, without even an particle of non-virtue having been done.

According to Dzogchen teachings, all sentient being attain Buddhahood by the end of the eon -- this is very clearly stated by Garab Dorje in the commentary above. But there are two kinds of Buddhahood, and as I said above, there is only Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis, and that is the Buddhahood attained through Dzogchen methods. The Buddhahood of other vehicles reverts to the basis, without the corresponding result.

Now then, the reason why we cannot take these metaphors in Uttaratantra literally is that the basis is not Buddhahood. If the basis were Buddhahood, there would be no need for any kind of recognition.

In Dzogchen, there is a difference between the basis and the result. The difference is simply vidyā and avidyā and the recognition and non-recognition that comes from those.

Further, it is not enough merely to understand the general original basis. One must also understand the human body as a basis.

I will not discuss this here since it is not a proper topic.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Mon May 09, 2011 4:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Ok, it is important to understand three things: the general original basis, the reality of the basis, and how ignorance manifests. In addition to that it is necessary to know that Garab Dorje's commentary on the Single Son of the Buddha's tantras supplies a necessary understanding I will address below at the section on the arising of the basis.

The Unwritten Tantra (Yi ge med pa describes how the general original basis exists:

“There is no object to investigate within the view of self-originated wisdom: nothing went before, nothing happens later, nothing is present now at all. Action does not exist. Traces do not exist. Ignorance does not exist. Mind does not exist. Discriminating wisdom does not exist. Samsara does not exist. Nirvana does not exist. Even vidyā itself does not exist i.e. nothing at all appears in wisdom. That arose from not grasping anything.”

This is the state of original purity, The Blazing Lamp says:
Within initial original purity
the nature is like so:
not made by anyone, manifesting naturally,
the nature is already just so.


In this state, The Rosary of Pearls states:
The mere term delusion cannot be described
within the original purity of the initial state,
likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning.


The Heart Mirror states “All phenomena of the basis must be understood as the trio of essence, nature and compassion. All phenomena of the essence must be understood as emptiness. All phenomena of the nature must be understood as luminosity. All phenomena of compassion must be understood as pervading all sentient beings.

So, of course, there must be essence, nature and compassion, timelessly present as the basis. Without these wisdoms, there can be no nirvana and no samsara. We can term these three "sugatagarbha" if we like. Padmasambhava states in the Clear Mirror:

Those three wisdoms pervade Samantabhadra and sentient beings down to the tiniest creature without any discrimination of good or bad, high or low.

Since these three wisdoms are themselves not established in anyway at all, we can be sure we are free from eternalism. Since these three natures always appear, we are free from annihilationism.

Vidya arises simultaneously with 8 vijnana. A moment of nonapprehension: sentient being. A moment of apprehension: Samantabhadra. No two moments, even though deluded discriminating mind sees two moments and re-liberation.


In the system of the Dzogchen Nyinghig three causes of ignorance are described -- those three are essence, nature and compassion. This is why there are three ignorances in this system. The system of explanation of Gongpa Zangthal is a little different, with only two ignorances -- we will continue with the Dzogchen Nyinthig system.

According to Garab Dorje, prior to the arising of the basis which is latent during the dark eon interval, nevertheless there are traces of affliction and action remaining from the previous eon. Because of these traces, the basis is stirred, the five lights appear and so on (this is why the Dzogcgen doctrine of two different kinds of Buddhahood is critical -- the first, the buddhahood that reverts the basis is the buddhahood asserted by all lower vehicles. The buddhahood that does not revert to the basis is the preserve of only Dzogchen).

The Gongpa Zangthal cycle supplies that during the arising of basis there is a neutral awareness (shes pa lung ma bstan) in the basis that does not recognize itself. This non-recognition is the innate ignorance. When this neutral awareness cognizes the five lights there is a dividing line between nirvana and samsara. When a neutral awareness recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own appearances it is is prajñā and is immediately liberated. That is Samantabhadra. A neutral awareness that does not recognize appearances as its own appearances immediately is the imputing ignorance, and samsara begins (again) because subject and object is imputed. This is all very clearly explained in detail in the eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyinthig. This is also clearly explained by Khenpo Ngawang Palzang.

Key point: innate enlightenment arises simultaneously with innate ignorance.


After the basis arises, innate ignorance is first and even Samantabhadra has it. There is period where a neutral awareness does not recognize itself in anyway. That is the innate ignorance. It (the neutral awareness) can only recognize itself through the display of five lights. When it recognizes that display as its own display, then this is the liberation of Samantabhadra without the performance of an iota of virtue. We on the other hand did not recognize these five lights as our own display, and for us, samsara began, without even an particle of non-virtue having been done.

According to Dzogchen teachings, all sentient being attain Buddhahood by the end of the eon -- this is very clearly stated by Garab Dorje in the commentary above. But there are two kinds of Buddhahood, and as I said above, there is only Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis, and that is the Buddhahood attained through Dzogchen methods. The Buddhahood of other vehicles reverts to the basis, without the corresponding result.

Now then, the reason why we cannot take these metaphors in Uttaratantra literally is that the basis is not Buddhahood. If the basis were Buddhahood, there would be no need for any kind of recognition.

In Dzogchen, there is a difference between the basis and the result. The difference is simply vidyā and avidyā and the recognition and non-recognition that comes from those.

Further, it is not enough merely to understand the general original basis. One must also understand the human body as a basis.

I will not discuss this here since it is not a proper topic.



So you are saying that vidya is something relative, how then can realization of it be "the ultimate Buddhahood of Dzogchen". And what is this "basis" that is beyond even rigpa itself? if there was a buddhahood that reverted it wouldn't be called Buddhahood now would it... it doesnt make sense because sense both mahamudra and dzogchenhave described the ultimate nature of mind to be the inseprable union of emptiness and clarity.. Only the Nyingma school accepts the division of all systems into the so-called nin yanas, so where does this leave the Buddhahood of the sarma which is the perception of ultimate reality by all means.. It is funny to impute a basis beyond a basis (which would be rigpa itself.)>. This is a dzogchen-centric world view and does not take into account the importance of the enlightenment of Buddha Shakyamuni, for without himt there wouldn't have been any turning of the dharma weels, and thus no base of buddhist awareness for the later teachers to make their cases...
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 5:25 pm

tamdrin wrote:So you are saying that vidya is something relative, how then can realization of it be "the ultimate Buddhahood of Dzogchen".


Vidyā is recognition of the basis. Avidyā is non-recognition of the basis. The basis is essence, nature and compassion.

And what is this "basis" that is beyond even rigpa itself?


Essence, nature and compassion which are present whether they are recognized or not.

if there was a buddhahood that reverted it wouldn't be called Buddhahood now would it...


What lower yānas terms "Buddhahood" is what Dzogchen terms "buddhahood that reverts to the basis".


it doesnt make sense because sense both mahamudra and dzogchenhave described the ultimate nature of mind to be the inseprable union of emptiness and clarity..


It makes sense. The nature of the mind is not all there is to Dzogchen. If it were, I agree it Dzogchen and Mahāmudra really would be no different.


Only the Nyingma school accepts the division of all systems into the so-called nin yanas, so where does this leave the Buddhahood of the sarma which is the perception of ultimate reality by all means..


A Buddhahood that reverts to the basis. The Buddhahood of all nine yānas is a buddhahood that reverts to the basis.


It is funny to impute a basis beyond a basis (which would be rigpa itself.)>. This is a dzogchen-centric world view and does not take into account the importance of the enlightenment of Buddha Shakyamuni, for without himt there wouldn't have been any turning of the dharma weels, and thus no base of buddhist awareness for the later teachers to make their cases...


Shakyamuni Buddha is the twelfth of the so called "twelve teachers" of Dzogchen prior to Garab Dorje. If you add Tonpa Shenrab into the mix, then Shakyamuni Buddha is important, but there have been many times in the past in this eon when Dzogchen teachings have been taught -- and often enough, without sutrayāna etc.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Mon May 09, 2011 5:42 pm

you seemed to be implying that there was a basis beyond emptiness/clarity/ and compassion -which are basically the 3 kayas.. I understand this but I am not sure that I by into this idea that there is lesser and greater buddhahood. Anyone who realizes emptiness purifies the obscurations that obscure liberation for that individual.. I dont see how there can be a greater buddhahood- its juust not convincing and seems to be yet another annoying attempt of one school to glorify itself above the others.. Another words if you realize the ultimate nature of mind you don't have to go looking for something beyond that. Every phenomenon is included in that.
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 5:51 pm

tamdrin wrote:you seemed to be implying that there was a basis beyond emptiness/clarity/ and compassion -which are basically the 3 kayas.


There is a basis beyond the nature of the mind. That's the point.

As to your other objection. I am presenting this for information. People do not understand these things well, primarily because most of this information is still locked away in Tibetan and historically it has been kept under lock and key by the Gelugpas i.e. they liked to control information, especially about Dzogchen and there is a tacit agreement not to rock the boat with radical upsetting Dzogchen doctrines.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Mon May 09, 2011 6:07 pm

I dont think so.. The nature of mind is emptiness and clarity.. this "basis" you are describing is "emptiness and clarity".. something beyond the ultimate is a fabrication of the conceptual mind.
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 6:11 pm

tamdrin wrote:I dont think so.. The nature of mind is emptiness and clarity.. this "basis" you are describing is "emptiness and clarity".. something beyond the ultimate is a fabrication of the conceptual mind.


Hi Sean:

For you, the mind is the basis. This is standard Mahāmudra view. You are talking about the kun gzhi, the ālaya.

For Dzogchen, the mind is not the basis. This is not talking about the kun gzhi, the ālaya, this is talking about the gzhi, the basis i.e. ṣthiti. Completely different.

(To be fair, in some Dzogchen cycles the term kun gzhi is used as a synonym for the gzhi, but it is clearly differentiated from mind as the ālaya)

N
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon May 09, 2011 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby LastLegend » Mon May 09, 2011 6:14 pm

No gaining or losing. Just as it is. Whatever is inherently there is inherently there, whatever is not inherently there is not inherently there.

Thanks for listening to my rant.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
User avatar
LastLegend
 
Posts: 1732
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Mon May 09, 2011 6:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:I dont think so.. The nature of mind is emptiness and clarity.. this "basis" you are describing is "emptiness and clarity".. something beyond the ultimate is a fabrication of the conceptual mind.


Hi Sean:

For you, the mind is the basis.

For Dzogchen, the mind is not the basis.

N


No Malcolm:
This is not about me. It is about your distinction between the ultimate nature of the mind and the basis and then failing the make any distinction.
-sorry the kun zhi is not mahamudra realization.. spacelike emptiness and clarity is.
Have a nice day!
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: namoh and 11 guests

>