Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 10:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:But collecting blessings and reciting supplications will never get you that experience. Only an experienced master who has that experience will able to introduce it to you in a direct personal way. That is the best blessing.

N


Oh wow. We agree. Good.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:48 pm

this debate is stupid.. comparison is stupid.. milarepa gom.. milarepa sol wan deb..
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 10:50 pm

tamdrin wrote:this debate is stupid.. comparison is stupid.. milarepa gom.. milarepa sol wan deb..



MIlarepa, another Dzogchen master. :stirthepot:

All your siddhas are belong to us....
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu May 12, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:this debate is stupid.. comparison is stupid.. milarepa gom.. milarepa sol wan deb..



MIlarepa, another Dzogchen master. :stirthepot:


Milarepa, a person who became happy... by giving up samsara
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 10:51 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:this debate is stupid.. comparison is stupid.. milarepa gom.. milarepa sol wan deb..



MIlarepa, another Dzogchen master. :stirthepot:


Milarepa, a person who became happy... by giving up samsara



There is no liberation through giving up samsara.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:[quote="tam
Milarepa, a person who became happy... by giving up samsara



There is no liberation through giving up samsara.[/quote]

yeah thats a nice saying.. people that live in the cities should spend more time in nature..
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 10:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote: The common opinion among Dzogchen yogis I talk to is that essence mahamudra is at the level of tregcho.


Tregchö = sems sde.


Tregcho is mengagde.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 10:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:this debate is stupid.. comparison is stupid.. milarepa gom.. milarepa sol wan deb..



MIlarepa, another Dzogchen master. :stirthepot:

All your siddhas are belong to us....


You wish.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:55 pm

im not a kagyu Malcolm.. you have totally convinced me that dzogchen is better and I should start practicing strictly Yang Ti!!.. Isn't that great!
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 10:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result. This causes them to automatically deviate. Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result. All notions of paths and stages are completely irrelevant in Dzogchen.


The same is true of essence mahamudra.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 10:56 pm

tamdrin wrote:yeah thats a nice saying.. people that live in the cities should spend more time in nature..



I agree, that is why I live in a town of less than 1600 people, way up in the hills, surrounded by forests and fields.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:58 pm

Namdrol wrote:[

There is no liberation through giving up samsara.



theres a lot of little things to be given up that will help lessen ones over all karmic baggage.. Living simply is a start, drinking pure water, eating healthy food, and generally avoiding alchohol will be good for ones overall health :)
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 11:00 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result. This causes them to automatically deviate. Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result. All notions of paths and stages are completely irrelevant in Dzogchen.


The same is true of essence mahamudra.



there is no essence mahamudra.. there is just mahamudra the inseparable union of emptiness and clarity.. that is the only real mahamudra.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 11:01 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote: The common opinion among Dzogchen yogis I talk to is that essence mahamudra is at the level of tregcho.


Tregchö = sems sde.


Tregcho is mengagde.



yes, the word comes from Man ngag sde (actually, to be perfectly accurate, it comes from the klong sde tantra, klong chen rab 'byams).

But the meaning of sems sde and trecgchö is the same -- again, this is not just my opinion -- this has been enunciated by various masters such as ChNN, Khenpo Palden Sherab, etc., masters who have a very broad and comprehensive understanding of textual systems of Dzogchen.

You cannot achieve rainbow body with tregchö -- this is why Longchenpa among others spends a lot of time criticizing tregchö in comparison with Thögal.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10148
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 11:02 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:[

There is no liberation through giving up samsara.



theres a lot of little things to be given up that will help lessen ones over all karmic baggage.. Living simply is a start, drinking pure water, eating healthy food, and generally avoiding alchohol will be good for ones overall health :)


Yes, I agree -- I eat homegrown food, do chulen, drink only moderately, our well is pure, mostly do not eat meat, etc.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10148
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 11:03 pm

actually namdrol,
rainbow body is precisely the result of trekchod ('ja lus)
the result of thogal is the body of light (od lus)
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 11:04 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result. This causes them to automatically deviate. Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result. All notions of paths and stages are completely irrelevant in Dzogchen.


The same is true of essence mahamudra.


Sometimes I really get the feeling that essence mahāmudra is just a Kagyu theory, a sort of an idealized mahāmudra that is basically unobtainable. Held out as a possibility which no one ever realizes.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10148
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 11:09 pm

tamdrin wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result. This causes them to automatically deviate. Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result. All notions of paths and stages are completely irrelevant in Dzogchen.


The same is true of essence mahamudra.



there is no essence mahamudra.. there is just mahamudra the inseparable union of emptiness and clarity.. that is the only real mahamudra.


Talk whatever you like.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 11:11 pm

tamdrin wrote:actually namdrol,
rainbow body is precisely the result of trekchod ('ja lus)
the result of thogal is the body of light (od lus)



I don't know who told you that, but it is wrong. Tregchö results in the dispersal of the body into subtle particles since it is the realization only of dharmakāya.

Rainbow body and body of light are synonymous.

You can check this out in Tulku Thudup's book.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10148
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 11:11 pm

read what a said adnitaha, it makes sense or not?? what you say doesn't have much creds in the dharma world unless you have done at least a 3 year retreat, at a place like almora for example..
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