Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:01 pm

Its result has the transcendent qualities
of purity, identity, happiness and permanence.
Its function is revulsion with suffering
accompanied by an aspiration, a longing for peace.

...

This is purity because its nature is pure
and all impurities of karma have been removed.

It is true identity because all complication of self
or no-self have been absolutely quelled.

It is happiness through the demise of the five aggregates,
which are of a mental nature, and their causes.

It is permanence since the sameness
of samsara and nirvana has been realized.

Uttaratantra


One word: jnana

Jnana is directly perceived and self-aware.

A non-phenomenal existence.

And it is endowed with compassion.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby kirtu » Tue May 03, 2011 10:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:Buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, is not a substantial thing. It is, for example, described as the dharmakāya encased in obscurations in the Śrīmālādevi sūtra.


Is the Śrīmālādevi Sūtra available anywhere?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
I bow down to the sun of dharma,
which is neither existence nor non-existence,
nor a combination of existence and non-existence,
nor something other than existence and non-existence:
the unexaminable, beyond all verbal definition,
self-cognisant, peace,
stainless, brilliant with the light jnana,
which completely destroys craving for,
aversion to or dullness toward mental objects.

-Uttaratantra


Key-word: self-cognisant



Sorry, this is not really translated correctly. The Sanskrit for this is "pratyātmavedyaḥ", this means "personally intuited", not self-cognizant. This is a common mistake made by translators when they do not realize that སོ་སོ་རང་གིས་རིག་པ (so so rang gi rig pa) is not a translation of svāsaṃvedana (self-reflexive or self-cognising). The two terms are very different in meaning. You could say "self-cognized" i.e. meaning something you personally understood.

The commentary on this passage by Kontrul bears this out.


Okay self-intuited. Same point.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:05 pm

Its result has the transcendent qualities
of purity, identity, happiness and permanence.
Its function is revulsion with suffering
accompanied by an aspiration, a longing for peace.

...

This is purity because its nature is pure
and all impurities of karma have been removed.

It is true identity because all complication of self
or no-self have been absolutely quelled.

It is happiness through the demise of the five aggregates,
which are of a mental nature, and their causes.

It is permanence since the sameness
of samsara and nirvana has been realized.

...

Since direct cognition, jnana and freedom from stain
are inseparable within the immaculate ground,
they are compared to the light, heat and colour of a flame.

Uttaratantra


One word: jnana

Jnana is directly perceived and self-aware(intuited).

A non-phenomenal existence.

And it is endowed with compassion.
Last edited by adinatha on Tue May 03, 2011 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 03, 2011 10:07 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:This is the case, but now you have left the teaching of the Tathagatagarbha sutras behind. That is not how they present the arising of the rūpakāya.

N


The case is the case, reinterpret on down.



Depends on what level. The way Dzogchen presents the three kāyas is incompatible with sūtra, but sūtra is not necessarily incompatible with Dzogchen. I understand that when one starts learning Dzogchen, it is a temptation to always explain everything in that way. But it confuses issues because in reality, according to Dzogchen classification scheme in Nyinthig, Dzogchen is really part of Abhidharma, and not sūtra.

I am just saying that your presentation is not consistent with Tathāgatagarbha sutra theory. It does not have to be.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 03, 2011 10:08 pm

adinatha wrote:
Okay self-intuited. Same point.


It is an important point.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 03, 2011 10:12 pm

adinatha wrote:
One word: jnana

Jnana is directly perceived and self-aware(intuited).

A non-phenomenal existence.

And it is endowed with compassion.


It is not an existence, as the passage you cite above from the UT shows. Jñāna is free from extremes. It is inappropriate to call it an "existence".

Further, Jñāna is not an object, so it cannot be directly perceived (in sūtra). It is the personal intuition of reality, however.

You will agree that it is always important to frame your context.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:17 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Okay self-intuited. Same point.


It is an important point.


Words are nuanced with several overlapping meanings. Translator get stuck on definitions.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 03, 2011 10:19 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Okay self-intuited. Same point.


It is an important point.


Words are nuanced with several overlapping meanings. Translator get stuck on definitions.



You have a philosophy degree, so you can appreciate that in technical language, a certain precision is required. And some terms are just not nuanced -- like this one.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:Depends on what level. The way Dzogchen presents the three kāyas is incompatible with sūtra, but sūtra is not necessarily incompatible with Dzogchen. I understand that when one starts learning Dzogchen, it is a temptation to always explain everything in that way. But it confuses issues because in reality, according to Dzogchen classification scheme in Nyinthig, Dzogchen is really part of Abhidharma, and not sūtra.

I am just saying that your presentation is not consistent with Tathāgatagarbha sutra theory. It does not have to be.


I can see how you trend toward the shastras.
its attribute is everlastingness

Uttaratantra


the examples abound
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:24 pm

Namdrol wrote:You have a philosophy degree, so you can appreciate that in technical language, a certain precision is required. And some terms are just not nuanced -- like this one.


I also have a law degree so I know words are ambiguous, fluid, situational, contextual, utilitarian and mere artiface.

Philosophy will never meet with the nature of the situation. Buddhadhatu is not subject to analysis. That's why using language loosely can free up intuitive space.

There is a way to talk positively about what is normally referenced only either negatively or ambivalently (neither nor).

And one doesn't need the stages of tantra to go there. The definitive and manifold meaning is to be found in all turnings.

If we don't go there the people will be lost. Time is short. The 2500 year project is complete. I want to cut to chase. All the background is out there. I favor Longchenpa's treasuries and the early Ati tantras for brevity and directness. I favor devotional guru sadhana for any and all ultimate realizations, and I content such realizations are pointed out directly by guru yoga at the moment, beyond stages. A very condensed guru yoga like Tigle Gyachen is favored.
Last edited by adinatha on Tue May 03, 2011 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:It is not an existence, as the passage you cite above from the UT shows. Jñāna is free from extremes. It is inappropriate to call it an "existence".

Further, Jñāna is not an object, so it cannot be directly perceived (in sūtra). It is the personal intuition of reality, however.

You will agree that it is always important to frame your context.

N


The personal intuition of reality is a description describing something that is not a mental object.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:28 pm

Oh yeah how could I forget, the example of the fully developed buddhas inside the decaying lotuses.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:36 pm

Namdrol wrote:But it confuses issues because in reality, according to Dzogchen classification scheme in Nyinthig, Dzogchen is really part of Abhidharma, and not sūtra.


Perhaps in the Nyingthig tradition, explanations resemble Abhidharma. But that is indirect. I think you could then further classify a higher Ati level of description solely from the standpoint of jnana.

I am just saying that your presentation is not consistent with Tathāgatagarbha sutra theory. It does not have to be.


The main point is Tathagatagarbha Sutras are definitive.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 10:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:I am just saying that your presentation is not consistent with Tathāgatagarbha sutra theory. It does not have to be.


The two aspects which Victors manifest
are like a moon in water.

-Uttaratantra


Supports my presentation of Tathagatagarbha Sutras
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Tue May 03, 2011 11:06 pm

Like him, in a way which is effortless
and from this dharmakaya, which is without birth or death,
buddhas engage in activity, such as manifestation,
for as long as conditioned existence continues [forever].

-Uttaratantra


As long as there are sentient beings, buddhas will reflect in their minds. This does not mean a buddha is caused. The manifest appearance is interdependent, like a moon in water. Like Indra's reflection in all lower realms. But a Buddha does not have skandhas so cannot be caused.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Jikan » Wed May 04, 2011 1:23 am

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, is not a substantial thing. It is, for example, described as the dharmakāya encased in obscurations in the Śrīmālādevi sūtra.


Is the Śrīmālādevi Sūtra available anywhere?

Kirt


it's translated as The Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala. Most good libraries should have it.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Wed May 04, 2011 1:56 am

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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Jikan » Wed May 04, 2011 2:04 am

adinatha wrote:Srimaladevisimhanada Sutra

http://www.webspawner.com/users/tathagata6/index.html


Even better. I found her book on Tathagathagarbha useful also, but I have reason to suspect not everyone has reason to be completely satisfied with that one.

***

This is a fantastic thread, by the way. Very thankful to all involved for the public debate. :namaste:
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 04, 2011 2:42 am

adinatha wrote:
The main point is Tathagatagarbha Sutras are definitive.


Only Dzogchen tantras are definitive AFIAC.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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