Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 6:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
My impression was that NNR's termas were all Longsal. His mengagde teachings are from his master Changchub Dorje. That's what I thought. I could be wrong; I'm not an expert on his stuff.


The full title of Rinpoche's cycle is klong gsal 'od gsal mkha' 'dro snying thig, "Longsel" for short.

It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.

N


the 8 volumes right?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 6:57 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
My impression was that NNR's termas were all Longsal. His mengagde teachings are from his master Changchub Dorje. That's what I thought. I could be wrong; I'm not an expert on his stuff.


The full title of Rinpoche's cycle is klong gsal 'od gsal mkha' 'dro snying thig, "Longsel" for short.

It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.

N


the 8 volumes right?



Eight that have been published so far.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 7:20 pm

Namdrol wrote:It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.


Yangti, what about Togal?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 7:22 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.


Yangti, what about Togal?



Well, yangti is higher than tögal, but yes, also that.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 7:27 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.


Yangti, what about Togal?



Well, yangti is higher than tögal, but yes, also that.


Yangti higher than togal? Who told you that?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 7:28 pm

adinatha wrote:
Yangti higher than togal? Who told you that?


The yangti tantras.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 7:33 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Yangti higher than togal? Who told you that?


The yangti tantras.


So what makes it higher than togal?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 7:58 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Yangti higher than togal? Who told you that?


The yangti tantras.


So what makes it higher than togal?



More methods, special methods, not taught in tögal. Even so, there has been some bleed over. One finds some methods of Yangti in cycles like Gongspa Zangthal and so on. Tögal is like the base for Yangti.

The simplest way to put it is that sems de works on with mind, but not with visions. In terms of the four visions klong sde works with space, but not with light. Tögal works with light, but not with dark. Yangti works with dark and other special methods which work with light. Since klong sde works with the four visions, this is why it is asserted that one can obtain rainbow body with klong sde. One cannot obtain rainbow body with sems sde.

This also the reason why it is asserted that one cannot obtain rainbow body with mahāmudra lacking tantric practices connected with the wisdom winds. I don't expect you to agree, but you should be aware of the reasoning.

Further, the yangti tantras assert that yangti is utter pinnacle of Dzogchen practice and theory. Perhaps the most famous yangti cycle is that of Dungtso Repa. The late Khetsun Zangpo was famous as one of the main promulgators of the Dungtso Repa Black Yangti teachings.

There are yangti cycles by Guru Chowang, Ngala Padma Dudul, Rigzin Chanchub Dorje, and so on.

As I keep stressing, there is a lot more to Dzogchen than Yeshe Lama and Thigle Gyacan. Can people obtain awakening from Yeshe Lama? Of course. Is there always more to learn, etc. Yes.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Enochian » Thu May 12, 2011 8:09 pm

Hi Namdrol,

What is the tibetan word for 'basis' that you have been using in this thread?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 8:20 pm

Enochian wrote:Hi Namdrol,

What is the tibetan word for 'basis' that you have been using in this thread?



Depends on context.

The basis is gzhi.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 8:31 pm

Namdrol wrote:More methods, special methods, not taught in tögal. Even so, there has been some bleed over. One finds some methods of Yangti in cycles like Gongspa Zangthal and so on. Tögal is like the base for Yangti.

The simplest way to put it is that sems de works on with mind, but not with visions. In terms of the four visions klong sde works with space, but not with light. Tögal works with light, but not with dark. Yangti works with dark and other special methods which work with light. Since klong sde works with the four visions, this is why it is asserted that one can obtain rainbow body with klong sde. One cannot obtain rainbow body with sems sde.

This also the reason why it is asserted that one cannot obtain rainbow body with mahāmudra lacking tantric practices connected with the wisdom winds. I don't expect you to agree, but you should be aware of the reasoning.

Further, the yangti tantras assert that yangti is utter pinnacle of Dzogchen practice and theory. Perhaps the most famous yangti cycle is that of Dungtso Repa. The late Khetsun Zangpo was famous as one of the main promulgators of the Dungtso Repa Black Yangti teachings.

There are yangti cycles by Guru Chowang, Ngala Padma Dudul, Rigzin Chanchub Dorje, and so on.

As I keep stressing, there is a lot more to Dzogchen than Yeshe Lama and Thigle Gyacan. Can people obtain awakening from Yeshe Lama? Of course. Is there always more to learn, etc. Yes.


It seems to be more a matter of personal choice. Rainbow body is rainbow body, whether you go longde, togal or yangti. Perhaps a yangti practitioner is going to say yangti is higher. But why would it be higher if the fruit is the same? Aside from rainbow body, there is also the fruit of complete manifest buddhahood, like Longchenpa.

Re mahamudra: The co-emergent unification oral instructions say explicitly that the fruit is unlimited. Rainbow body is not a concern. Tantra mahamudra is subordinate to and a path to get to the co-emergent unification.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 8:38 pm

adinatha wrote:
It seems to be more a matter of personal choice. Rainbow body is rainbow body, whether you go longde, togal or yangti. Perhaps a yangti practitioner is going to say yangti is higher. But why would it be higher if the fruit is the same?



Faster, more direct, more methods.



Aside from rainbow body, there is also the fruit of complete manifest buddhahood, like Longchenpa.


Same thing. Can't attain rainbow body without being a Buddha. As far as that Abhisambuddhahood [complete manifest buddhahood] in Dzogchen is considered a lesser result compared with Samyaksambuddhahood. The former is with remainder, the latter, without remainder.



Re mahamudra: The co-emergent unification oral instructions say explicitly that the fruit is unlimited. Rainbow body is not a concern.


Does not go beyond sems sde.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 9:05 pm

Namdrol wrote:Faster, more direct, more methods.


Method is just method. Mileage varies. Some people spend whole life on the faster direct methods and don't realize the full extent. Method is no guarantee.

Same thing. Can't attain rainbow body without being a Buddha. As far as that Abhisambuddhahood [complete manifest buddhahood] in Dzogchen is considered a less result compared with Samyaksambuddhahood. The former is with remainder, the latter, without remainder.


Are you saying Longchenpa did not attain Samyaksambuddhahood? Who did, then? Any recent examples?

Re mahamudra: The co-emergent unification oral instructions say explicitly that the fruit is unlimited. Rainbow body is not a concern.


Does not go beyond sems sde.


Pure sectarianism and wrong view.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 9:25 pm

adinatha wrote:
Method is just method. Mileage varies. Some people spend whole life on the faster direct methods and don't realize the full extent. Method is no guarantee.



Then those people do not understand the theory. If method does not work, than view is faulty.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Clarence » Thu May 12, 2011 10:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:Then those people do not understand the theory. If method does not work, than view is faulty.


How can we reconcile that with the illiterate Dzogchen masters attaining rainbow body? How can one come to understand the theory? Is it hard?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:28 pm

adinatha thinks he has realization but I think he is bound up in grasping (to lineage)...
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Thu May 12, 2011 10:40 pm

tamdrin wrote:adinatha thinks he has realization but I think he is bound up in grasping (to lineage)...


Lineage is all important. Don't fool yourself.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 10:42 pm

Clarence wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Then those people do not understand the theory. If method does not work, than view is faulty.


How can we reconcile that with the illiterate Dzogchen masters attaining rainbow body? How can one come to understand the theory? Is it hard?



Dzogchen is not rocket science. It is very easy to understand if you have an open mind and you do not go around complicating things.

Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result. This causes them to automatically deviate. Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result. All notions of paths and stages are completely irrelevant in Dzogchen.

There are mainly one thing that matters in Dzogchen -- whether or not you are a fortunate person. If you are a fortunate person you will meet a master who has experience who can demonstrate to you your real condition and the methods to discover that for yourself. You do not have to be an educated person like me who has studied way too many books. There is a saying in Dzogchen, an illterate person who has personal experience of their real state will gain liberation far sooner than a Pandita who is expert in a hundred dharma systems but does not have that experience. Dzogchen is not intellectual. It is based on personal experience. You do not have to be literate, or particularly well educated to have that experience. Our friend adinatha will tell you that realization of Dzogchen based on the blessings of the lineage. But actually, it is based on recognizing a personal experience. Maybe we mean the same thing. Certainly having that recognition is wonderful thing, inexpressible, a cause for faith and a great blessing. But collecting blessings and reciting supplications will never get you that experience. Only an experienced master who has that experience will able to introduce it to you in a direct personal way. That is the best blessing.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:43 pm

ganges mahamudra 101.... khor yul chag dang dral wa kun chod la.. severing attachment and aversion.. the object of samsara... abide in mountain and forest hermitages... This is the first step to attaining inner peace which won't even care if it reverts to the basis .. lol
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 12, 2011 10:43 pm

adinatha wrote: The common opinion among Dzogchen yogis I talk to is that essence mahamudra is at the level of tregcho.


Tregchö = sems sde.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

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