The thicket of views

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

The thicket of views

Postby ground » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:55 am

    - all is emptiness
    - everything is empty
    - emptiness is the ultimate truth
    - the ultimate (goal) is non-duality
    - everything is mind only (or produced by mind)
    - all is illusion
    ...
and so on and so forth.

These or similar formulated fabrications are uttered again and again.

Why is this? What makes non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications so attractive?


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:05 am

For cryin' out loud!

Care to share your non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrication with us or are you beyond these types of petty concerns? If so please email me a photo so I can add it to my altar, if you want I can throw you into the refuge tree I prostrate to every day as well! Or are ngondro practices also non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications as well, and not deserving of your presence?

Does your extraordinarily high high horse come with a foldaway ladder or is it an optional extra?

But seriously now, who are you to judge that everybody is merely engaging in non-differntiating, all-inclusive fabrications?

Who are you to judge what a n-d, a-i, f is?

I mean, seriously now, do you really believe that you are in any position to pass judgement on people like Nagarjuna (for example)? The guy was a f^$%^%#n' genius, a Mahasattva!!! What is your basis for this judgement? A serious course of intellectual reasearch? Realisations gained through meditation? What???

For f#$^(%&'s sake, get a grip my friend, you are slipping!
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7893
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby plwk » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:28 am

Image
plwk
 
Posts: 2456
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:12 am

You know what plwk you are right, this is a boring and repetitive conversation, I think that it is the third time that I have pointed out this shortcoming to TM. So I will leave him to his habit of chronic intellectual delusions of grandeur and the next time you see me take the bait from TM do me a favour and kick me in the goolies to snap me out of it!

Thanks!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7893
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Rael » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:50 pm

TMingyur wrote:
    - all is emptiness
    - everything is empty
    - emptiness is the ultimate truth
    - the ultimate (goal) is non-duality
    - everything is mind only (or produced by mind)
    - all is illusion
    ...
and so on and so forth.

These or similar formulated fabrications are uttered again and again.

Why is this? What makes non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications so attractive?


Kind regards


mantras are repeated....your heart beats and beats again....formal practice is repeated...

If your stumped on the emptiness thing....maybe it's a good idea to find a teacher who will take you there through years of baby steps.....

the formulas and :quoteunquote: Buddhist talk :quoteunquote: (lol) are there for a reason....but unless your walked there it is not going to make sense....

they never did for me when i first read them....

it was only after my guru painstakingly gave teachings on this over a few years....

then during practice stuff was experienced..


stuff like :
looking at how you need water food air to exist..your not an island unto yourself.

sounds simple but unless you really feel this simple thing.....well...

nothing can exist by itself.....

everything has so many other factors to exist....

baby steps one must take baby steps...

then you concentrate on finding the "I" in you...

start at your toes...is this I dwelling there....where is this I is it my legs ..my torso....oh is it in my heart area....you can never pinpoint it....

is it the way i feel....my embarrassing moments , my anger...well those were here and now they are gone so that can't be it....

these things seem simple...

there are a plethora of practices such as these....

and still one is not ready to read the the formulas posed to us in the suttas and the sutras....

it's not enough it seems....

well for me anyway.....

Tmingur you have read all the suttas ...and i think sutras as well.....

is it enough...you seem to be still looking....

you went off on tangents that Sunyata is thought not experience....

emptiness is just something that one intellectualizes.....not really....thats only part of it

you need a Guru...prefeably One who has the the Three Kaya Bodies...winkety wink....to teach you with....
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:18 pm

:good:
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7893
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Josef » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:23 pm

plwk wrote:Image

:rolling:

I found this to be absolutely hilarious.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:25 pm

Oh well ... I thought I give it a try.

But then there is "gregkavarnos" who does not want to understand and who cannot resist and "Rael" who wants to give advice about how to successfully appropriate views ...

Nevermind


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Rael » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:29 pm

TMingyur wrote:Oh well ... I thought I give it a try.

But then there is "gregkavarnos" who does not want to understand and who cannot resist and "Rael" who wants to give advice about how to successfully appropriate views ...

Nevermind


Kind regards


if you are honest ...you would say you are trying to show where the Mahayana is not true Buddhism from what you know....

and you try to dance around it and think every now and then you got em......come on ....we all see it.....


as for me....

when i post off someone it's not just for that person it's for prosterity and the guests that frequent here....

you afford me a plank from which i bounce off and practice my grammar is all....

get over your self...be honest why you post here and have a good day knowing you are fodder for thought and for some of us....an object of scorn :coffee: :tongue:
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:34 pm

Rael wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Oh well ... I thought I give it a try.

But then there is "gregkavarnos" who does not want to understand and who cannot resist and "Rael" who wants to give advice about how to successfully appropriate views ...

Nevermind


Kind regards


if you are honest ...you would say you are trying to show where the Mahayana is not true Buddhism from what you know....


No I am honest ... listen ... I am convinced that Mahayana can be "true Buddhism" (to borrow your words).


Rael wrote:when i post off someone it's not just for that person it's for prosterity and the guests that frequent here....

you afford me a plank from which i bounce off and practice my grammar is all....

Okay.

Rael wrote:get over your self...be honest why you post here ...

It is mental training and giving and receiving inspiration.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby conebeckham » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:43 pm

Why is this? What makes non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications so attractive?


Because the Absolute Experience, which cannot be conceptualized, only directly experienced, nevertheless is felt to be so valuable and beneficial that countless noble beings have attempted to formulate conceptual pointers, due to the fact that communication for ignorant sentient beings such as ourselves is conceptual, language-based thinking. These "pointers" become fabrications when they are not understood to be pointers to something "beyond the limit" of conceptual mind, but instead remain objects of conceptual mind,due to ignorance and the absence of proper, correct, and complete application of the antidotes.
Thus, Sakyamuni Buddha first questioned whether to teach the Dharma in the first place.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2430
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:46 pm

TMingyur wrote:
No I am honest ... listen ... I am convinced that Mahayana can be "true Buddhism" (to borrow your words).




What defines "true" buddhism?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10169
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
No I am honest ... listen ... I am convinced that Mahayana can be "true Buddhism" (to borrow your words).




What defines "true" buddhism?


I borrowed Raels words.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Rael » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:51 pm

TMingyur wrote:
No I am honest ... listen ... I am convinced that Mahayana can be "true Buddhism" (to borrow your words).





Kind regards

can be....

oki doke...thats the honesty .....

look somoen ragged on you about Nargajuna The King of the Snake people who lived 900 years....

personnaly i don't think so...but the writings are Buddhist...and lead one on the path....


westerners mish mashming them around annoys me....hence my angst in the the emptiness thread with Namdrol the Great....

I've come to terms that the Buddha did not write the lotus sutra andit was some persian dude who prolly ate a lot of hashish and was a super intilect and understood buddhism more than most....and he presented it to the emperor of china and had to live with the dude for awhile....prolly got laid a bunch of times.....

who cares...it's Buddhist....

wait....so by this form of thinking maybe i should pay homage to Namdrol the Great and the western teachers.....


argh...painted meself in a corner....

ya bug me dude....

laterzzzzzz
r
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:51 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
No I am honest ... listen ... I am convinced that Mahayana can be "true Buddhism" (to borrow your words).




What defines "true" buddhism?


I borrowed Raels words.

Kind regards


If you are convinced that Mahayana is not "true" buddhism, what is?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10169
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:54 pm

TMingyur wrote:But then there is "gregkavarnos" who does not want to understand
Oh, I understand all right, don't you worry about that! It just so happens that on some points I do not agree. Your pernicious view versus mine!
...and who cannot resist...
This though, is VERY true! :tongue:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7893
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:00 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Why is this? What makes non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications so attractive?


Because the Absolute Experience, which cannot be conceptualized, only directly experienced, nevertheless is felt to be so valuable and beneficial that countless noble beings have attempted to formulate conceptual pointers, due to the fact that communication for ignorant sentient beings such as ourselves is conceptual, language-based thinking. These "pointers" become fabrications when they are not understood to be pointers to something "beyond the limit" of conceptual mind, but instead remain objects of conceptual mind,due to ignorance and the absence of proper, correct, and complete application of the antidotes.
Thus, Sakyamuni Buddha first questioned whether to teach the Dharma in the first place.


First of all, I appreciate your serious response.

Your applying the term "pointer" ... but if these "countless noble beings" have experienced a - what you call "absolute" experience ("absolute" IMO has to have metaphorical meaning here) - and if the other, non-noble beings did not have this experience, then why do these noble beings apply pointers for the others (the "blind") who cannot see where the pointers do point to?


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby conebeckham » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:06 pm

Out of compassion?

I mean.....Look, there are 84,000 Dharma Teachings, right, to be metaphorical? There is always the chance that what is one ignorant blind person's conceptual clap-trap is actually another ignorant blind person's "effective signpost?"

If one doesn't get you there, then try another.....unless and until you find the right one?
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2430
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:06 pm

Coz we are not blind, our vision is merely temporarily obscured. If all sentient beings were blind then only a miracle (and we all know that miracles do not exist, only causes and conditions) could make them see. ie nobody would ever be enlightened. But since we have examples of sentient beings that have becomed enlightened and/or have degrees of realisation then we must conclude that pointers are necessary or else (to quote Namdrol the Great :tongue: ) we can all just pack up and go home now.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7893
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:09 pm

conebeckham wrote:Out of compassion?


When a "real" blind man who cannot see asks you how to get to the railway station that you can see because you are not blind, would you then point to the station that you can see using your hand's finger and say "There it is"?

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Next

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: palchi and 8 guests

>