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What basis is there for seperating jhana into two? - Dhamma Wheel

What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
DorjePhurba
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What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby DorjePhurba » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:57 am

Ok. So I've come to the conclusion after reading some suttas and listening to a few talks that jhanic practice is fundamental to developing vipassana or insight. I have a copy of U Pandita's book 'In This Very Life' and he says there are two different jhanas. Samatha jhana and vipassana jhana. Now I've never heard of this and from what I've read about jhana, I've never come across jhana being divided into two types. This seems odd to me and I'd like to know what basis there is for this. Any suttas make this distinction? Also, has this been a view held by the Sangha since the time of the Buddha or is it something new (which is what I'm guessing)? That's all for now.

With metta,
Chris

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mikenz66
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:19 am

Hi DorjePhurba,

I've mostly seen the term from U Pandita and some of his students (Goldstein, Armstrong). I understand it as a way of grouping sections of the Progress of Insight () together.

Here are some previous discussions:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2890
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 6&start=20
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3298
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=916
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 2&start=40

There are some talks by Joseph Goldstein and Steve Armstrong here:
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?q=vipassana+jhana
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/170/? ... ana+jhanas


Mike

Kenshou
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby Kenshou » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:58 am

It's just a classification in the scheme of 1 teacher (as far as I know), and as Mike said, some of his students. There is no such distinction in the suttas. It is indeed new. And it's nothing to worry yourself about, unless you're exclusively interested in the method of U Pandita.

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tiltbillings
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:49 am


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Ben
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby Ben » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:55 am

Nice post, Tilt!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:39 pm

Hi DorjePhurba

The problem is the comentarial/Abidhammic notion of samatha jhana. Acording to this notion, during jhana the senses are shuted down and there is singleness of mind. But that's not what the suttas say. In MN111 for example, you can see that that's not the case.

The Mahasi/U Pandita tradition is very traditional (in the sense of accepting and folowing the Abidhamma and comentaries), but also very based on experience. So they found these concetrated states of mind similar to the jhanas as taught by the Buddha (the "sutta jhanas"). Since these states of mind don't fit the traditional samatha jhanas defenition, they called it vipassana jhanas.

In conclusion, the vipassana jhanas are the sutta jhanas aplied to vipassana.

Metta
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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IanAnd
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby IanAnd » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:41 am

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

PeterB
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby PeterB » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:39 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:02 pm


DorjePhurba
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Re: What basis is there for seperating jhana into two?

Postby DorjePhurba » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:19 pm



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