Do you really think existence is an illusion

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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:42 pm

Rael wrote:rolling stones shattered runs in background.....


shattered...my buddhist history is shattered....
Yah ain't seen nothin' yet, bbbbaby no yah ain't seen nothin' yet, bbbbaby... Bachman Turner Overdrive!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:45 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Rael wrote:rolling stones shattered runs in background.....


shattered...my buddhist history is shattered....
Yah ain't seen nothin' yet, bbbbaby no yah ain't seen nothin' yet, bbbbaby... Bachman Turner Overdrive!


lol

Those guys are still kicking....they played at the outdoor hockey deal this winter...and sound the same....he looks like he did 30 years ago...lol...
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:57 pm

all in all ...i think the illusion deal is about non attachment...it's like a trick to live and not go insane...

in a way it is an illusion for we only have the moment...and that moment changes ....

but then the reality of your entire life and it is very real....

i put the thread up cause like some people tend to fluff the whole deal off as like some dream within a dream...

and then you have hard core reality....and it is hard core....
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby muni » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:34 pm

Rael wrote:all in all ...i think the illusion deal is about non attachment...it's like a trick to live and not go insane...

in a way it is an illusion for we only have the moment...and that moment changes ....

but then the reality of your entire life and it is very real....

i put the thread up cause like some people tend to fluff the whole deal off as like some dream within a dream...

and then you have hard core reality....and it is hard core....



The security of thoughts, Ah, there I abide if not I am lost. whithout their free run there is nothing? What about impermanence?

Magical moments as like the sun we only see after sun is already there before mind percieve it. By eyes we only see after the projection is landed upside down in the brain and becomes turned and eyes see it. The moment, already gone before mind percieves...romantic view of the stars, oh! those stars are already gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KtSmXHmiqA

Just impermanence tells a lot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWiIMiEt ... re=related
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:02 pm

muni wrote:
Rael wrote:all in all ...i think the illusion deal is about non attachment...it's like a trick to live and not go insane...

in a way it is an illusion for we only have the moment...and that moment changes ....

but then the reality of your entire life and it is very real....

i put the thread up cause like some people tend to fluff the whole deal off as like some dream within a dream...

and then you have hard core reality....and it is hard core....



The security of thoughts, Ah, there I abide if not I am lost. whithout their free run there is nothing? What about impermanence?

Magical moments as like the sun we only see after sun is already there before mind percieve it. By eyes we only see after the projection is landed upside down in the brain and becomes turned and eyes see it. The moment, already gone before mind percieves...romantic view of the stars, oh! those stars are already gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KtSmXHmiqA

Just impermanence tells a lot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWiIMiEt ... re=related


yeah the you tube is about my one moment deal....but i'm really saying..big whooooppty do!!!!

what about the hardcore moments of suffering or ecstasy .......starvation....this moment stuff is like really "who cares"....


this is what i refer to as flaky philosophical waste of time.....

uuuuu it's sort of like an illusion cause of each passing moment...the stars up there..some are already dead....uuuuu scary stuff....

This existence is not an illusion but a realm of desire.....a definite place to inhabit and experience....
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:16 pm

impermanence is another aspect that one is suppossed to feel comfy about....

the Situ Rinpoche says if you know this for true then you will be happy....

man how far can one fall from the tree of daily life and suffering////

knowing this is not helping people ...

it's a flaky philosophical whooopty do....

once you really really understand that all is impermanent....it's nice...it's amazing...but it doesn't put food on the table...
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Anders » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:29 pm

Rael wrote:impermanence is another aspect that one is suppossed to feel comfy about....

the Situ Rinpoche says if you know this for true then you will be happy....


You have it the other way around.

You're not 'supposed' to feel 'comfy' about impermanence. In fact, Buddhism assumes that we are most uncomfortable about impermanence, it is an aspect of life the mind habitually tries to shield itself from being aware of. It is this inverted view, that it is even possible to do so, that is a source of suffering.

investigating impermanence isn't a process of getting comfy with it. It is a process of investigating how deeply uncomfortable we are with it, how we habitually adopt perceptions of permanence in many guises (even quite many shapes that do not appear to us as 'permanence', but nevertheless has these traits of substance, solidity, foundation) to 'protect' ourselves from it and don't even recognise that it is this very process of shying away from it due to our misguided perception of impermanence, that is the source of suffering, not impermanence itself.

Hence, in relation to these kind of inverted views, it is often said that where ordinary beings seek for happiness, the sage finds none and where the sage finds happiness, ordinary beings imagine only suffering. The Buddha's Dharma is one that 'goes against the stream' in this regard.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Anders » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Rael wrote:but i'm really saying..big whooooppty do!!!!

what about the hardcore moments of suffering or ecstasy .......starvation....this moment stuff is like really "who cares"....


Tell that to the generations of practitioners who have gladly suffered and starved on this path and reported back that they found it more than worthwhile.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:01 am

If the 4 Noble truths, as existing phenomena, were merely illusion (=not really there), then why bother teaching them? They would have no existence whatsoever there would be only an illusion.


The Four Noble Truths are for sentient beings. Sentient beings are illusory. The Four Noble Truths are also illusory. The entire path is illusory.

The Dharma With Characteristics is conditioned phenomena. Ultimate Reality is unconditioned, and beyond concept.

To paraphrase a bumper sticker...."Things are not as you think they are. Nor are they otherwise."
:smile:

And as for the Vinaya, it was not brought to Tibet by Gampopa, or by any Kadampa. The actual Vinaya ordination lineage for monks in Tibet stems from the Mulasarvastivadan school, and goes back to Shantarakshita. There was a period during which the Dharmagupta Vinaya lineage was being considered, but in the end I believe all Tibetan lineages follow the Mulasarvastivadan texts and tenets.

There are two traditions of the Bodhisattva Vows--but the monastic traditions of Vinaya all stem from the original transmission at the time of the original ordination at Samye, I think.
Last edited by conebeckham on Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:26 am

Rael wrote:impermanence is another aspect that one is suppossed to feel comfy about....

the Situ Rinpoche says if you know this for true then you will be happy....

man how far can one fall from the tree of daily life and suffering////

knowing this is not helping people ...

it's a flaky philosophical whooopty do....

once you really really understand that all is impermanent....it's nice...it's amazing...but it doesn't put food on the table...


Rael, countless beings who followed the Buddhist path to its culmination no longer ever have to worry about putting food on their tables, or anything else at all. Ever. Real help would be to realize how to permanently guide all beings to THAT condition.

We all wish to do something to alleviate the suffering of beings here and now, and there is much we can and must do. But you feel their present suffering is the most important thing to focus on? OK, focus on that, but then what are you gonna do about the unendurable suffering they'll experience in billions and trillions of their future lives? Is this life more important than those countless future lives they'll have? And what about the fact that you can only help the tiniest amount of beings in the most limited, short-lived way, leaving almost all beings at all time without any help at all. Oh, and then there's the fact that once your tiny, short-lived ability to help runs out and you die, you'll be right back in the same boat with them, desperately hoping someone would help you and wishing your own suffering would let up. Not a great plan for someone who's so concerned with helping beings.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:59 am

Also, our perception of reality has got to be illusory; otherwise it would have to mean that phenomena have an unchanging, inescapable self-nature and the things that sometimes bring us happiness would always bring us happiness while the things that cause us suffering would always cause us suffering. We'd also either always cling to these positive, negative, or neutral experiences or never cling to them. Our true nature would also be set in stone as "deluded sentient being" so we'd be powerless to direct the course of our existence. We'd be forever stuck in the "real" rut we're in right now. However, we know that a phenomenon can at some times elicit a blissful response and at other times it elicits suffering or a neutral response. It's hardly reliable. We also perceive things to be solid, lasting things, when even modern science tells us molecules, atoms and subatomic particles are like the trunk of a banana tree - each comes together temporarily through causes and conditions; and each seems to be something, but each can be broken down into smaller parts which themselves can be broken down into smaller parts until eventually all you have is space. We also have these seemingly real, intrinsic identities, but closer examination shows that our identity is not unchanging and existing by its own power; instead it is equally shaped by past karma, the circumstantial experiences of this life, the perception of living in this ever-changing body, and our own choices and ideas. The only thing that really seems to stay constant about "I" is the sense of owning our ever-changing experience.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:52 am

Anders Honore wrote:
Rael wrote:impermanence is another aspect that one is suppossed to feel comfy about....

the Situ Rinpoche says if you know this for true then you will be happy....


You have it the other way around.

You're not 'supposed' to feel 'comfy' about impermanence. In fact, Buddhism assumes that we are most uncomfortable about impermanence, it is an aspect of life the mind habitually tries to shield itself from being aware of. It is this inverted view, that it is even possible to do so, that is a source of suffering.

investigating impermanence isn't a process of getting comfy with it. It is a process of investigating how deeply uncomfortable we are with it, how we habitually adopt perceptions of permanence in many guises (even quite many shapes that do not appear to us as 'permanence', but nevertheless has these traits of substance, solidity, foundation) to 'protect' ourselves from it and don't even recognise that it is this very process of shying away from it due to our misguided perception of impermanence, that is the source of suffering, not impermanence itself.

Hence, in relation to these kind of inverted views, it is often said that where ordinary beings seek for happiness, the sage finds none and where the sage finds happiness, ordinary beings imagine only suffering. The Buddha's Dharma is one that 'goes against the stream' in this regard.


Look i know what impermanence is...
I've made it my own.....

but like i said it is a nice thing to sit back all comfy and talk about...and tell your students that it will bring you happiness....

But the reality of life is such that it doesn't put food on the table....or stop the Maosit butcher from tortuing you....

true I've met a Lama who was happy to be able to give happiness to the Maosit butcher who electrocuted his genitals for fun....but in the end ...really now....did that make it any less a tortue.....


and yes not realizing impermanent nature of life is a source of suffering....

I'm just on about Spiritual teachers saying nice philosophical terms and making like if you don't grasp these things you are suffering and if you finally grasp these things you get to be free from suffering.....

ok so this is my bad hair day side.......live with it
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:53 am

Anders Honore wrote:
Rael wrote:but i'm really saying..big whooooppty do!!!!

what about the hardcore moments of suffering or ecstasy .......starvation....this moment stuff is like really "who cares"....


Tell that to the generations of practitioners who have gladly suffered and starved on this path and reported back that they found it more than worthwhile.

and where am i refuting such people.....or slighting them.....
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby deff » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:57 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Rael wrote:impermanence is another aspect that one is suppossed to feel comfy about....

the Situ Rinpoche says if you know this for true then you will be happy....

man how far can one fall from the tree of daily life and suffering////

knowing this is not helping people ...

it's a flaky philosophical whooopty do....

once you really really understand that all is impermanent....it's nice...it's amazing...but it doesn't put food on the table...


Rael, countless beings who followed the Buddhist path to its culmination no longer ever have to worry about putting food on their tables, or anything else at all. Ever. Real help would be to realize how to permanently guide all beings to THAT condition.

We all wish to do something to alleviate the suffering of beings here and now, and there is much we can and must do. But you feel their present suffering is the most important thing to focus on? OK, focus on that, but then what are you gonna do about the unendurable suffering they'll experience in billions and trillions of their future lives? Is this life more important than those countless future lives they'll have? And what about the fact that you can only help the tiniest amount of beings in the most limited, short-lived way, leaving almost all beings at all time without any help at all. Oh, and then there's the fact that once your tiny, short-lived ability to help runs out and you die, you'll be right back in the same boat with them, desperately hoping someone would help you and wishing your own suffering would let up. Not a great plan for someone who's so concerned with helping beings.


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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:57 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Rael wrote:impermanence is another aspect that one is suppossed to feel comfy about....

the Situ Rinpoche says if you know this for true then you will be happy....

man how far can one fall from the tree of daily life and suffering////

knowing this is not helping people ...

it's a flaky philosophical whooopty do....

once you really really understand that all is impermanent....it's nice...it's amazing...but it doesn't put food on the table...


Rael, countless beings who followed the Buddhist path to its culmination no longer ever have to worry about putting food on their tables, or anything else at all. Ever. Real help would be to realize how to permanently guide all beings to THAT condition.

We all wish to do something to alleviate the suffering of beings here and now, and there is much we can and must do. But you feel their present suffering is the most important thing to focus on? OK, focus on that, but then what are you gonna do about the unendurable suffering they'll experience in billions and trillions of their future lives? Is this life more important than those countless future lives they'll have? And what about the fact that you can only help the tiniest amount of beings in the most limited, short-lived way, leaving almost all beings at all time without any help at all. Oh, and then there's the fact that once your tiny, short-lived ability to help runs out and you die, you'll be right back in the same boat with them, desperately hoping someone would help you and wishing your own suffering would let up. Not a great plan for someone who's so concerned with helping beings.


where am i saying what your saying is wrong or a bad thing.....

i'm saying....telling people if they really understand impermanece, which i think i do...it is not going to make you totally happy in this world.....

and the condition you describe is what we as Buddhist strive for ..i know that.....but these lil flowery superlatives about understanding philosophical statements is not going to get you there.....


what you need to do is complete the final stages of Vajrayana.......
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:44 am

Rael wrote:and the condition you describe is what we as Buddhist strive for ..i know that.....but these lil flowery superlatives about understanding philosophical statements is not going to get you there.....


what you need to do is complete the final stages of Vajrayana.......


First I'd say the statements about the benefits of realizing impermanence which you object to are not the problem, but rather the fact that you think they're "lil flowery superlatives."

Then I'd ask you how you think thoroughly contemplating and meditating on impermanence is going to make people's situations of "needing to put food on the table" and so forth worse?

Lastly, I'd ask you how you think one gets to the final stages of Vajrayana without getting the realization of impermanence through one's thick skull?
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:43 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Rael wrote:and the condition you describe is what we as Buddhist strive for ..i know that.....but these lil flowery superlatives about understanding philosophical statements is not going to get you there.....


what you need to do is complete the final stages of Vajrayana.......


First I'd say the statements about the benefits of realizing impermanence which you object to are not the problem, but rather the fact that you think they're "lil flowery superlatives."

Then I'd ask you how you think thoroughly contemplating and meditating on impermanence is going to make people's situations of "needing to put food on the table" and so forth worse?

Lastly, I'd ask you how you think one gets to the final stages of Vajrayana without getting the realization of impermanence through one's thick skull?


the only thck skull is the one deciding what i said and interpreting what i said as ....

here let me ask you this....

you say;
the statements about the benefits of realizing impermanence which you object to


what benefits exactly do i object to....seriously....

and then the leap to;
Then I'd ask you how you think thoroughly contemplating and meditating on impermanence is going to make people's situations of "needing to put food on the table" and so forth worse?


where did i say this exactly....how do youeven come to this conclusion that i implied such a thing....

oh wait....you won't be able to....it's just you deciding to type rubbish to negate anything i said for the sake of negating....


now here's a laugh; and i say laugh due to the complete ass you tried to make of me just now and then you go with:
Lastly, I'd ask you how you think one gets to the final stages of Vajrayana without getting the realization of impermanence through one's thick skull


completion stage vajrayana is physiological...the realizations and the compassion one generates previously is to manage the power that comes along with it.....

i would say the completion stage enhances these realizations and Bodhiccita produced prior to completion stage practice....

even without both the realizations you talk of and the Bodhiccita the completion stage practices can be accomplished...but the person with this change could be a dangerous one to themselves and their environment....without the proper training in the first place.....


nice try......enjoy your animosity.....or what ever motivates you to read into me in such a fashion....
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:46 am

conebeckham wrote:And as for the Vinaya, it was not brought to Tibet by Gampopa, or by any Kadampa. The actual Vinaya ordination lineage for monks in Tibet stems from the Mulasarvastivadan school, and goes back to Shantarakshita. There was a period during which the Dharmagupta Vinaya lineage was being considered, but in the end I believe all Tibetan lineages follow the Mulasarvastivadan texts and tenets.
Thank you for the clarification :twothumbsup:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby muni » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:10 am

Yes. Impermanence is one of the biggest way of beings' suffering. To can go smoothly through ups and downs in acception like regarding bread on the table; a daily way to see each situation as a friend or teacher rather than a struggle on our path. To go through the day without expectations who are suiting us, as all suiting, this is not the way how things/experiences appaer.
Edit to add a youtube which appears maybe not as Mahayana but then please change all in order this youtube can suit. Thank you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtVTw9g5 ... re=related
Last edited by muni on Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby muni » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:16 am

Anders Honore wrote:
Rael wrote:but i'm really saying..big whooooppty do!!!!

what about the hardcore moments of suffering or ecstasy .......starvation....this moment stuff is like really "who cares"....


Tell that to the generations of practitioners who have gladly suffered and starved on this path and reported back that they found it more than worthwhile.


Exactly!
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