ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:37 pm

The voice of the Devil.

All Bibles or sacred codes have been the causes of the following Errors.
1. That Man has two real existing principles Viz: a Body & a Soul.
2. That Energy, call'd Evil, is alone from the Body, & that Reason, call'd Good, is alone from the Soul.
3. That God will torment Man in Eternity for following his Energies.

But the following Contraries to these are True

1. Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for that call'd Body is a portion of Soul discern'd by the five Senses, the chief inlets of Soul in this age
2. Energy is the only life and is from the Body and Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy.
3 Energy is Eternal Delight




Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained; and the restrainer or reason usurps its place & governs the unwilling.
And being restrain'd it by degrees becomes passive till it is only the shadow of desire.
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:39 pm

sounds like enlightenment to me....

i bet he laughed a lot...he sang on his death bed....
:offtopic: :oops:
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:40 pm

Rael wrote:sounds like enlightenment to me....

i bet he laughed a lot...he sang on his death bed....
:offtopic: :oops:



the whole thing is here;

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/blake_ma.html
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:57 pm

Rael wrote:Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained; and the restrainer or reason usurps its place & governs the unwilling.
And being restrain'd it by degrees becomes passive till it is only the shadow of desire.



It is true that if we indulge a desire too much we may end up rejecting it - like workers in a chocolate factory that can't face eating it any more, having freely indulged in the past. However, the mind can be trained in other less extreme ways.

I feel that the quenching of desire arises through meditation and other related practice.

If there is restraint ,constraint, etc. then this implies an active struggle to contain the beast of desire.

Practice should ensure that we have no need of this, as equanimity, compassion, bodhichitta etc. arise and desirous attachment decreases and is ultimately quenched.

maitri

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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Jikan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:09 am

It's off topic, but Blake's at his best in some of those Proverbs of Hell:

Without contraries is no progression


Opposition is true friendship


It's dialectical thinking with comic timing. Diabolical, yes, but I find it affecting.

Signed,

William Blake Appreciation Society & Devil-Voiced Collective, Washington DC Local
general secretary: Jikan, who used to post as 'thegiantalbion' in reference to The Four Zoas at e-sangha

:focus:
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:56 am

Jikan wrote:It's off topic, but Blake's at his best in some of those Proverbs of Hell:

Without contraries is no progression


Opposition is true friendship


It's dialectical thinking with comic timing. Diabolical, yes, but I find it affecting.

Signed,

William Blake Appreciation Society & Devil-Voiced Collective, Washington DC Local
general secretary: Jikan, who used to post as 'thegiantalbion' in reference to The Four Zoas at e-sangha

:focus:


ha...we talked in pm there....i was one of a few who understood your moniker...and i think it seems sir i have you at a disadvantage...

I see Blake as an enlightened being...enlightened in the sense his kunadalinni was Awakened and it gave him insight to his time and religious beliefs...

he brought so many away from the drudgery of the belief system at the time....

cheers
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:01 am

Rael wrote:so like if you end craving why take up the mahayana?....

To become a Buddha in order to help all others become a Buddha.

Rael wrote:everyone i know in the Mahayana that wants completion stage ...is craving...for completion stage....some sit in a box for 3 years to attain siddhis...

i mean tell me it's not craving....oh you can disguise it ans try to feel unattached...but really now....lets be honest....

What is there in completion stage to be craving? The whole object of completion stage is to gain knowledge of one's channels, winds, and drops in order to be able to induce the most conducive circumstances to realize emptiness. How does craving come into this picture?

And what does craving have to do with sitting in a meditation box on a three year retreat? Craving to gain the ability to really help others?
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Jikan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:18 pm

I don't know if Blake was enlightened or not. That's a speculative matter. I take the David Erdman & E.P. Thompson line that Blake was a "prophet against empire," and for that, Mr Blake will always have my respect and admiration.

This bears on the question of when (or if?...) Shakyamuni Buddha was enlightened, which is a question that one can attempt to answer historically or devotionally. I think most Buddhists accept on faith one of the two basic versions we've seen in this thread: always-already enlightened, or enlightened at a specific time in history in a place in India 2.5K years ago.

I'm trained as a historian. I don't think this is a question history can answer for us in a satisfactory way. I'm also trained as a Buddhist. In that role, I can say without equivocation what I put my faith in (the Lotus Sutra version if you're curious). To my mind, this isn't much different from saying that William Blake's kundalini had crossed the threshold, or that George Fox had received the "latihan" of Subud (Pak Subuh's clam), or that Hegel was some kind of enlightened philosopher-sage (a position Ken Wilber takes).

My point is that we believe what we want to believe, so we might as well be honest about it.
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:01 pm

Jikan wrote:I don't know if Blake was enlightened or not. That's a speculative matter. I take the David Erdman & E.P. Thompson line that Blake was a "prophet against empire," and for that, Mr Blake will always have my respect and admiration.

This bears on the question of when (or if?...) Shakyamuni Buddha was enlightened, which is a question that one can attempt to answer historically or devotionally. I think most Buddhists accept on faith one of the two basic versions we've seen in this thread: always-already enlightened, or enlightened at a specific time in history in a place in India 2.5K years ago.

I'm trained as a historian. I don't think this is a question history can answer for us in a satisfactory way. I'm also trained as a Buddhist. In that role, I can say without equivocation what I put my faith in (the Lotus Sutra version if you're curious). To my mind, this isn't much different from saying that William Blake's kundalini had crossed the threshold, or that George Fox had received the "latihan" of Subud (Pak Subuh's clam), or that Hegel was some kind of enlightened philosopher-sage (a position Ken Wilber takes).

My point is that we believe what we want to believe, so we might as well be honest about it.


well i think this Dharma free for all zone is a great place to talk enlightenment and what it means, or for some more importantly , what it means to oneself... :thinking:

is interpratation all we have here in this forum? :tongue: :twothumbsup:


historicly then...you feel the lotus sutra's history actually happened at the time of Lord Sakyamuni...?

this epic event word for word was beheld by some?

People somehow managed to view it?

It's not some interesting sci fi fction novel loaded with Buddhist concepts created by some Persian gentlemen with an affinity for the profound...

I believed this Sutra for well over 20 years and was a member of no less than two sects with at times, fanatical grab your wife out of a sick bed and force gongyo on her or we all go to hell attitude....ruinous fanatical belief that was applauded and given to behavioral rewards or something or other....you had to be there....


I think the thing (the lotus sutra) ended up in the hands of Nichiren who definitely took it word for word and thought himself some character in it.....for a reason....so that eventually belief in such is shown to be a road to ruin and despair enlightenment wise as displayed by the believers of it....such as I.....there is no one enlightened in the nichiren schools of thought that i met....my opinion....quite the opposite .... using UNESCO trademarks to claim freedom of religion and respect for all in order to teach one that everything on the planet except them is poison...give me a huge tootsie roll for figuring it out....

If there really are Buddhist guardians and worry what we practice down here....they move quite slow ...but they definitely, I believe move ......

all sects practicing this thing are a defilement of what the Buddha intended ...in my opinion...it goes against so many grains of Buddhist thought...respecting freedom of religion but it all boils down to 3 chapters and the rest of the sutra even is poison...

You know there is a thread about whether Tibetan Buddhism will stick...

I think that it's time to separate the wheat from the chaff.....why be frightened to say what modern day History uncovers...

I think it is wrong for some one to be taught that indeed this treasure tower floated out into the sky and a select few saw this wondrous event...and then the whole thing was some how recorded and held secret by snake people ....

who wrote the history as to how it came to be given to Nargajuna...who put the seal of approval on that...that piece is missing for me... can someone help me to know how it actually came to the surface and became available to non snake people....

Yo...i believed in this stuff...i can believe it again....help me see....


Blake's works describe Kundallinni for me in my opinion...the enlightenment he experienced was one of loving kindness and abject disdain for religious folly of the time....he saw and wrote and drew...

i think any physiological evolution of the Chakras and drops and channels is enlightenement....

for me it is a physical event ...that imbues the person's mind with an awareness of the reality one lives in ....
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:42 pm

Maybe we still focus too much on the finger.

Since we have no concrete irrefutable evidence of any scripture being the words of Shakyamuni, maybe we should simply focus less on the origin and more on the message and practices, and maybe trust that what seems to have worked for others may also work for us.

Maybe at the extreme, 'my guru teaches this and I trust my guru's teaching' .........is enough?

Trouble is, my guru insists that I shouldn't! LOL :)
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:54 pm

Yeshe wrote:Maybe we still focus too much on the finger.

Since we have no concrete irrefutable evidence of any scripture being the words of Shakyamuni, maybe we should simply focus less on the origin and more on the message and practices, and maybe trust that what seems to have worked for others may also work for us.

Maybe at the extreme, 'my guru teaches this and I trust my guru's teaching' .........is enough?

Trouble is, my guru insists that I shouldn't! LOL :)

I realize how i can be interpreted...do i have an agenda...maybe i developed one...no it comes to me that i do have an agenda...i see certain things as dangerous...dangerous in the hands of some...

maybe the guru knows he has to temper the words of the accepted Buddhist canon due to it not being actually the words of the Buddha...

what works is the basic....what distorts is a whole other matter...

i dunno....some times i feel i do more harm than good....


i'm not attending any lectures and such anymore....i meditate and try me best to live correctly and help someone everyday if i can...even if it is only a cheer up....

i use the teachings i have learned to work with my physiology .....daily......

An alchemist said doing such will give you manic highs and manic lows and not to worry....just accept them....

i never was depressed before i started ....lol....now i am a bit of a manic depressive.....

rambling on..again.....lol...

hey lets have a poll....

does rael drive you nuts.....be honest...

do you think rael needs to tone down his obsseive opinions of himself publically....

do you think what rael thinks needs to be shared, is just his boredom .....

do you think rael needs to change his avatar to this cranky guy :offtopic:

speaking of Avatars, Lilith is somewhat of a muse for me :popcorn:

maybe thats the Rael trouble... :focus:
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:27 pm

Better a Rael than a forum which is a 'Grand Parade of Lifeless Packages'. ;)
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:49 pm

Yeshe wrote:Better a Rael than a forum which is a 'Grand Parade of Lifeless Packages'. ;)


i used to love that vision of what i deemed a reincarnation of sorts.




Genesis
The Grand Parade Of Lifeless Packaging

The last great adventure left to mankind"
-Screams a drooping lady
offering her dreamdolls at less than extortionate prices,
and as the notes and coins are taken out
I'm taken in, to the factory floor.
For the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-All ready to use
the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-just need a fuse.
Got people stocked in every shade,
Must be doing well with trade.
Stamped, addressed, in odd fatality.
That evens out their personality.
With profit potential marked by a sign,
I can recognise some of the production line,
No bite at all in labour bondage,
Just wrinkled wrappers or human bandage.
The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-All ready to use
It's the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-just need a fuse.
The hall runs like clockwork
Their hands mark out the time,
Empty in their fullness
Like a frozen pantomime.
Everyone's a sales representative
Wearing slogans in their shrine.
Dishing out failsafe superlative,
Brothere John is No. 9.
For the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-All ready to use
It's the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-just need a fuse.
The decor on the ceiling
has planned out their future day
I see no sign of free will,
so I guess I'll have to pay,
pay my way,
for the Grand Parade.
for the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-All ready to use
the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging
-just need a fuse


From the album Genesis Archive: 1967-1975
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:55 am

ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment


The absolutely undeniable answer to your quandary finally dawned on me:

The Buddha attained enlightenment *NOW*
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:33 am

ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment
When the chicken crossed the road?

Did I get the right answer? Did I win the stuffed toy??? :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:04 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment
When the chicken crossed the road?

Did I get the right answer? Did I win the stuffed toy??? :tongue:

"I'm not amused"
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:03 am

Rael wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment
When the chicken crossed the road?

Did I get the right answer? Did I win the stuffed toy??? :tongue:

"I'm not amused"
Pommy git! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:03 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Pommy git! :tongue:

I do consider a multitude doth make rather discord and confusion than good counsel.
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Re: ok i gotta ask/when did Buddha first attain enlightenment

Postby muni » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:44 am

[quote="Yeshe"]Maybe we still focus too much on the finger.

quote]

Yes. Looking for liberation we follow navigation to find the "exit" but when we CLING to the navigation, we don't see that the looking for liberations' exit itself is conditioning us in already very free nature. I mean fingers are needful as long as there is seeking. but putting teeths in one is no help. :tongue:
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