By Scripture/Faith alone?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:47 pm

Yeshe wrote:I think you are mixing up 'validity' and 'validation'.

Something is either valid or not.

Then we do not agree.
Never mind.

Yeshe wrote:In either case, where are the examples to back up the assertion that 'Vajrayanists' are what you have now changed in definition as 'proselytising', a much more defined act than using propaganda.

You and I may be using propaganda to discuss, but I'm not trying to proselytise.

I have written "some Vajrayanists".

Okay, accepted. Then let's put it that way: Any statement that refers to a certain type of teaching in an affirmative manner may be considered "propaganda".
That's fine. I am engaging in propaganda for the sutta pitaka without wanting to proselytise.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:48 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Dear TMingyur,

Care to back up your propaganda with some concrete evidence or you just gonna baselessly slander the Vajrayana and Vajrayanaists?

Please quote the statement that you consider to be "slander".

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:52 pm

Let's have a show of hands for everybody here that does not consider the Sutta Pitaka valid, useful, informative and essential.

Don't look at me, my hands are currently nailed to the ground (it's always a bastard of an affair trying to get the second nail in by myself).

STRAW MAN!

Please quote the statement that you consider to be "slander".
Please objectively re-read some of the nonsense that you have posted.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7889
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:55 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Please quote the statement that you consider to be "slander".
Please objectively re-read some of the nonsense that you have posted.
:namaste:


Objectively this is no quotation.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:16 pm

TMingyur wrote:I am engaging in propaganda for the sutta pitaka without wanting to proselytise.

Kind regards


All Buddhists do so, I thought. ;)

But having agreed in earlier posts that it is also a collection of interpretations, like any other scripture, why have more faith in that set of interpretations above that of the mahayana scriptures written down in some cases only a short while later?

If Shakyamuni revealed some teachings to one group of disciples who passed on what has now become the sutta pitaka, why is that more 'valid' per se? After all, it' a collection of memories and transliterations supposedly attributed to Shakyamuni.

Yesterday my guru reminded us to focus on the teachings and not the teacher.

We may have varying degrees of faith in the scriptures and the lineage, but in the end it is faith in the Dharma which is at the root of all. By all means assert that a certain set of scriptures is valid, but this in no way invalidates other scriptures, nor does it have a claim to pre-eminence which may be validated with any certainty. It is unforgivable to label the sutta pitaka itself as 'Hinayana' but it cut both ways. ;)

You obviously express the view that it matters that we should all choose the set of scriptures you favour, as propaganda for your view, but we don't have to regard other scriptures as lesser in order to have respect for each other's preferences.

maitri

Yeshe
Left
Blue Garuda
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Rael » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:24 pm

it's odd how one would argue the validity of scripture ...which was written down by a human.

and put higher value on personal experience...which is done in the human realm...

especially since that experience is to do with scripture that has been read by a human ...

so it really is whether Mahayana or Theravada is more valid...

it's just some round about argument.....

this whole higher and lesser vehichle stuff....when did this actually come into play....

in the sense that did someone ...actually label this higher lower...

was it any of the great teachers....
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:28 pm

Yeshe wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I am engaging in propaganda for the sutta pitaka without wanting to proselytise.

Kind regards


All Buddhists do so, I thought. ;)

But having agreed in earlier posts that it is also a collection of interpretations, like any other scripture, why have more faith in that set of interpretations above that of the mahayana scriptures written down in some cases only a short while later?

If Shakyamuni revealed some teachings to one group of disciples who passed on what has now become the sutta pitaka, why is that more 'valid' per se? After all, it' a collection of memories and transliterations supposedly attributed to Shakyamuni.

Yesterday my guru reminded us to focus on the teachings and not the teacher.

Of course it is a matter of experience. The collection I propagate is more direct and does not invite papanca. That's my reasons to propagate it as fundamental "dharma protection". The basis.

Yeshe wrote:You obviously express the view that it matters that we should all choose the set of scriptures you favour, as propaganda for your view, but we don't have to regard other scriptures as lesser in order to have respect for each other's preferences.

Again: Basis, fundament, "dharma protection". If one feels the need to build something on top of this basis then fine ... actually as far as Mahayana is concerned it is a must to build something on top (but not necessarily vajrayana). What is built on top is not necessarily "lesser"

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:43 pm

Scriptures do not invite prapanca, it is part of the human response at times to samsaric existence.

I don't think you accept the equal value of Buddhist scriptures - you cannot on the one hand say that your choice is the foundation on which other scriptures build 'on top' and then assert that they are not consequentially lesser.

Scripture does not determine the strength our faith, nor does one part or another have any inherent superiority.

If one is exposed to a Pali sutta dealing with Compassion, or a Vajrayana teaching on the same, why is the effect on the disciple necessarily greater or more valid from the former?
Left
Blue Garuda
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Rael » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:12 pm

I think you either accept that the Buddha turns a Dharma Wheel or doesn't.

Turning the Dharma Wheel implies that anything that leads one to performing right action right view right speech right livelihood is valid for the person engaging in that teaching.

there is no lesser or higher...and to quote a Sutra there are not one , two or three vehicles there is only one.


the parable in the Lotus Sutra of the burning house.

A Father returns from afar and sees his house on fire and his children are inside playing , blind to the fact the house is on fire...

Father screams for them to come out for the house is on fire....

kids so caught up in play refuse....

so father lies and says there are three fine carts for you to play with come quick and see....

kids come out and no carts.....

where are the carts father....they turn and see house on fire and then a beautiful cart appears....


house is samsara
we are the kids
father is the Buddha
the fire is delusion
the lie of the three carts are all the weird religions and teachings and everyone not realizing they are just tools...

the one beautiful cart> the turninmg of the Dharma Wheel....all the teachings will take you there eventually and are tailored for all levels of people ...
enlightenment is the goal...


all these teachings we have on our planet are here due to the Dharma Wheel...even the ones that seem to really conflict with Buddhist thought....

your valuing yourself and your understanding of Buddhism far too much if you think the others are lesser or higher....

every single one of them that forces people to take notice and live properly.....are the one vehicle to enlightenment in the long run...

we should not cause any confusion in any of the vehicles that seem to be lesser or inferior to you....




maybe some might think that Vajrayana is the quickest for it is like the last thing that physiologically one has to do to accomplish the great work
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:06 am

TMingyur wrote:Of course it is a matter of experience. The collection I propagate is more direct and does not invite papanca. That's my reasons to propagate it as fundamental "dharma protection". The basis.


Since your entire series of claims for the sutta pitaka and against other scriptures and traditions of Dharma is based on this one claim that it does not invite papanca, I will simply ask you for objective proof that this is the case. I agree that this conversation began in the context of 'personal experience', but you've long since expanded far beyond your personal experience to make far reaching and apparently universal claims about the sutta pitaka in opposition to other scriptures and methods of teaching. If you said, "for myself, I find that the sutta pitaka is very direct and does not invite papance, whereas I have a different experience with other texts and in the context of oral instruction". But that's not what you're saying: your statements above are absolute, not relative, and I assume you are aware of that since you wrote them. So please prove to us that any being reading the sutta pitaka will not experience papanca, and then prove to us the corollary: that those reading mahayana or vajrayana texts will experience papanca.

As for my own experience, -if you are interested- I highly doubt I ever would have found the Dharma or become Buddhist in this life if it wasn't for the Vajrayana presentations. These are what spoke most deeply to me, immediately upon contact, including Vajrayana art, mantra, music, teachings, life-stories, and most importantly the direct transmissions from living wisdom-beings whose presences are vast, compassionate, oceanic examples of the fruition of the path. These are the things that 'hooked' me, drew me in to deeper and deeper study and reflection and most importantly, practice. So perhaps it is quite a relative thing what fundamental "dharma protection" is, and how it functions depending on our karma, circumstance, and capacities. .
'
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:31 am

I think all has been said now.
I see that propaganda for one collection through referring to its benefits and advantages will always create the impression of anti-propaganda against another collection in the minds of those that prefer the other collection to the one.

So be it. Everyone may prefer and propagate what pleases. If her/his experience complies with her/his propaganda then there should not be any problem if someone else propagates something different. Why? Because if view and experience go together that is what is called certainty.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:00 am

TMingyur wrote:I think all has been said now.
I see that propaganda for one collection through referring to its benefits and advantages will always create the impression of anti-propaganda against another collection in the minds of those that prefer the other collection to the one.


I don't think that's necessarily true, however specifically the way you were promoting the suta pitaka in the preceding few pages did indeed include anti-propaganda against other collections, and not just in the minds of others... this is what you are finding people here reacting to. And no one in this dialogue that I recall was involved in anti-propaganda against the sutta pitaka, actually the opposite.. .

And let's not forget, as a few people have been reminding you -- this is specifically a forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism so you must have been aware from the outset that some of the anti-propaganda you were initiating would be provocative.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:04 am

Dear Vajrayana followers

Take this statement:
The vajrayana is not necessary generally even for successful Mahayana practice but the "understanding" of the four noble truths (as taught in the sutta pitaka) is generally necessary for sucessful practice of any buddhist path which necessarily implies the integration of this "understanding".

Would you say that this statement is "anti-propaganda against collections other than the sutta pitaka"?


Kind regards


Edit:
Wording changed a bit to match intention better.
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:10 am

TMingyur wrote:Dear Vajrayana followers

Take this statement:
The vajrayana is not necessary generally even for successful Mahayana practice but the "understanding" of the four noble truths (as taught in the sutta pitaka) is generally necessary for sucessful practice of any buddhist path which necessarily implies the integration of this "understanding".

Would you say that this statement is "anti-propaganda against collections other than the sutta pitaka"?


Kind regards


Edit:
Wording changed a bit to match intention better.


It depends-- from a vajrayana POV, the vajrayana is the natural progression of the mahayana-- so once one gets to a particular point in mahayana practice vajrayana (not the brand name, but the essence) is inevitable. From the POV of a mahayana practitioner then there would be no apparent need for vajrayana practice, at least until they reached a level where it theoretically became inevitable. But we are speaking purely of the essence of vajrayana-- not the trappings or the appearance of it. I believe a student of Trungpa Rinpoche asked him if Suzuki Roshi practiced vajrayana, in the context of a teaching dialogue similar to this- and he said something terse like- "yes, good for him!". So he was obviously pointing to something beyond the way we normally identify vajrayana.

Now as far as the "understanding" of the four noble truths (as taught in the sutta pitaka) being generally necessary for sucessful practice of any buddhist path.. that sounds reasonable but I am not so sure. Why? Because the essential teaching of the four noble truths is found endlessly in a great deal of mahayana and vajrayana literature and practice-texts.. so one would automatically be imbibing and integrating this understanding without ever needing to refer to the sutta pitaka. And who is to say that the source of this essential understanding was the sutta pitaka prior to the physical recording of these other texts? That would be an unviable claim to make. As I mentioned earlier, it is quite plausible that the oral lineages of mahayana sutras were simply written down a bit later than the pali ones, this doesn't mean they are any less likely to be recordings of the actual historical Buddha's teachings. And vajrayana has an entirely different system of understanding transmission and revelation. But I received a quite profound teaching regarding the Maha Ati vehicle which is the natural progression or perfection of Vajrayana practice, -and the Lama taught primarily on the first words said to be uttered by Buddha Shakyamuni after his great awakening under the Bodhi tree. These were something like

"Deep and quiet,
simple, clear, unformed.

A truth that is
like nectar, I have found.

Whoever I explain it,
no one will understand.

So, in the jungle,
silent, I remain."


The Lama explained in detail how this was an expression of Dzogchen and is a Dzogchen teaching itself, and he unfolded the meaning so we received a couple hours of pure Dzogchen teaching directly derived from this first utterance. However later the Buddha was moved to leave the jungle and physically teach by the insistent requests of Indra and Brahma -where he subsequently used many relative methods and words to teach according to the varying capacities of sentient beings.. I just bring this up because it is another perspective on the "foundation" of the teachings. From the Maha Ati perspective, this realization itself beyond expression was and is the foundation- not the four noble truths. The words used to express the inexpressible will always mislead in one way or another, which is why the direct transmission from teacher to disciple through methods that aren't reliant on words alone is considered indispensable in the 'higher' yanas. In this way, a text, even the sutta pitaka, could never substitute for this, and therefore wouldn't be considered as primary.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:28 am

TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Please quote the statement that you consider to be "slander".
Please objectively re-read some of the nonsense that you have posted.
:namaste:


Objectively this is no quotation.

Kind regards
In Greece we say that a camel always sees the mis-shapen hump of the camels surrounding it but never its own mis-shapen hump! This dialogue is a clear case of this metaphor.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7889
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:07 am

Adamantine wrote:... the essential teaching of the four noble truths is found endlessly in a great deal of mahayana and vajrayana literature and practice-texts.. so one would automatically be imbibing and integrating this understanding without ever needing to refer to the sutta pitaka.

I would not want to agree here. Two things cannot be found in the Mahayana sutras that can be found in the sutta pitaka (especially in the Samyutta Nikaya): The profundity and the uncompromising directness that does not leave any emergency exit for "I" and "mine".
The ambiguity of Mahayana sutras invites fabrications and distraction.
And as to vajrayana ... the colorfulness of metaphors offers too much possibilities for "fantasy" exits. Now you may say: That is why oral explanations are required. Then I would say "yes, obviously".


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:57 am

TMingyur wrote:
Adamantine wrote:... the essential teaching of the four noble truths is found endlessly in a great deal of mahayana and vajrayana literature and practice-texts.. so one would automatically be imbibing and integrating this understanding without ever needing to refer to the sutta pitaka.

I would not want to agree here. Two things cannot be found in the Mahayana sutras that can be found in the sutta pitaka (especially in the Samyutta Nikaya): The profundity and the uncompromising directness that does not leave any emergency exit for "I" and "mine".
The ambiguity of Mahayana sutras invites fabrications and distraction.
And as to vajrayana ... the colorfulness of metaphors offers too much possibilities for "fantasy" exits. Now you may say: That is why oral explanations are required. Then I would say "yes, obviously".


Kind regards


On the contrary, there is a very strong focus on emptiness and impermanence in the Mahayana which is very uncompromising with regard to 'I' and 'mine' . In fact, this is also true with regard to rebirth teachings and the essential rejection of any identifiable aspect of 'I' or 'mine' traveling from life to life.

As for escape into fantasies, there is plenty of that with regard to the Pali canon and (for example) rebirth, where some are at great pains to seek to 'prove' that the words actually mean 'becoming' or some other variation rather than plainly teaching post-mortem rebirth 'after the breaking up of the body'.

Given individual interepretations I think any scripture is open to fantasy, not the least being the occasional people we meet here and on other forums who claim to be Buddhas, 'awakened' etc. The Vajrayana works on the mind and has a strong emphasis on transmission from a suitable teacher - this produces a very clear understanding of reality, far removed from the assumption some make that it deals with imagery as fantasy . As with the Pali Canon, this is important to avoid misunderstanding and ignorance.
Left
Blue Garuda
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:12 pm

Rael wrote:
are not Pratyekabuddhas those that gain it on their own....?



Not exactly. The solitary attainment of pratyekabuddhahood occurs in dependence upon powerful, deep-seated mental imprints of having learned and practiced the Dharma under the guidance of a teacher in the usual way in past lives. With that requisite basis, one may for example encounter some bones while in the wilderness, or witness some other manifestation of impermanence or one of the other 12 links of interdependent origination, and this will trigger a chain reaction where those past imprints ripen and one fully realizes the 12 links and gains liberation. The teachings are clear that these imprints from past learning and practice are what enables this realization to "spontaneously" come about.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby Rael » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:19 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Rael wrote:
are not Pratyekabuddhas those that gain it on their own....?



Not exactly. The solitary attainment of pratyekabuddhahood occurs in dependence upon powerful, deep-seated mental imprints of having learned and practiced the Dharma under the guidance of a teacher in the usual way in past lives. With that requisite basis, one may for example encounter some bones while in the wilderness, or witness some other manifestation of impermanence or one of the other 12 links of interdependent origination, and this will trigger a chain reaction where those past imprints ripen and one fully realizes the 12 links and gains liberation. The teachings are clear that these imprints from past learning and practice are what enables this realization to "spontaneously" come about.


where did you learn this....

i ask because you are leaving no room for the state we know as Buddhahood other than somehow being trained by buddhists....

buddha is a word...awakened one...yes /no?

hmmmm maybe i just answered my question....

it cannot be done without an awakened teacher .......

that was nice.... :twothumbsup: :thanks: :twothumbsup:
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: By Scripture/Faith alone?

Postby ground » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:29 pm

Rael wrote:it cannot be done without an awakened teacher .......


Of course ... the Buddha.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Inge, Lotus108, Sherab Dorje, Tabkye and 19 guests

>