Intellectualism, Right View and Awakening

[gregkavarnos]

There is a difference between sophistry and discerning wisdom. And this difference applies to thoughts expounded in both formats, prose and verse.

I agree 100%, guilty as charged!

[tobes]

Dear Tobes,

If I was in your physical presence I may try to display the twin miracle (and fail dismally, of course) or attempt Tilopas final method to get Naropa to quit thinking and pull off my wooden clog and beat you between the eyes 'til you fall down unconscious (though that would probably end up in assault and battery charges and a short stint in jail) but this is an internet forum (as you are fond of informing me) so I guess I just have to use words and concepts. Again though, we are getting stuck on the finger and missing the moon.

Why do you assume this? I have only been on this forum for a very short while, and I have already learned a great deal from other posters. How do you know people aren't seeing the finger for exactly what it is (i.e. a provisional tool of upaya)?

[tobes]

The middle path people the middle path....

I see Greg and most here as intellectuals well beyond the ordinary.

All of you are well versed in Buddhism...

why start attacking each other with this crappolla....

Ah well, Buddhists love a good debate. Ever seen the Tibetans do the hand clap "Haaa Tzaaa" upon making a winning point? Actually there should be an emoticon which does that, although, I'm sure it would be badly abused!

[tobes]

You would deny that concepts, coloured by emotions, cause negative thoughts and feelings to arise and bind us more tightly to samsaric existence through our egoistic responses?

No, of course not. Papanca is an ever present danger.

But papanca does not refer to all concepts or all conceptual thinking. Talking about, contemplating, analysing, and yes, even debating the dharma is clearly a wholesome conceptual activity.

It's an old chestnut isn't it? The yogis accuse the scholars of not having experience, and the scholars accuse the yogis of not knowing anything.

But I've never met a teacher who said you don't need both.

[tobes]

PS This is probably the most polite way anybody has ever told me to "Shut the **** up!"

No, actually I appreciate your perspective on all this. It just seems that silence is a natural entailment of it.

You could always hold up a flower and hope that a modern day Mahakassapa is around to recognise the message. But I grant you that this is hard to do via cyberspace.

[Hanzze]

Sometimes I was wondering why many Asian teachers have been fallen into alcoholism and other strange things, but since some month on-line I do not wonder any more, I just call them real hero's.
I guess one needs to leave his sentiments far at home to work in "modern" style countries and wiki times

[gregkavarnos]

Dear Tobes,

Why do you assume this? I have only been on this forum for a very short while, and I have already learned a great deal from other posters. How do you know people aren't seeing the finger for exactly what it is (i.e. a provisional tool of upaya)?

I assumed this because instead of commenting on the subject of the post/poem you launch a criticism of the medium (ie written form, concepts, "view") and others even directly attacked me.

Or, like Huseng as well, you take my posts to be a direct personal attack on you rather than a commentary on a general situation.

But this, I guess, is what makes a view a view: when we personally identify with a position, when the ego gets involved with and is defined by the "theory".

And what is (for me) over-intellectualisation? When the discussion of a point of interest related to Dharma no longer has any direct bearing on practice. I believe that we must learn, teach, debate, analyse, theorise, etc... but for the sake of a more refined, conclusive and sucessful practice. Otherwise it just becomes, well...

PS For us ignoramouses out here could you please provide Englishs translation of sanskrit (and other Dharma language) terms you use (in brackets or as a footnote) so that we don't have to cruise the internet everytime in order to understand you? Thanks!

[Rael]

The middle path people the middle path....

I see Greg and most here as intellectuals well beyond the ordinary.

All of you are well versed in Buddhism...

why start attacking each other with this crappolla....

Ah well, Buddhists love a good debate. Ever seen the Tibetans do the hand clap "Haaa Tzaaa" upon making a winning point? Actually there should be an emoticon which does that, although, I'm sure it would be badly abused!

yes i've seen the hand clap...i believe their are certain rules and unwritten rules of conduct...

something like attack the post not the poster...which i have to say is really in effect here....

I'm not the best person to debate with for i change my mind....i learn as i go and well...in this medium it is confusing.

as per learning...the stuff we learn in Buddhism is very intellectual...but really and truly when it comes to Tantra that goes out the window once you really start "Doing Things"....it took me years of going over and over the verbal pointing to a Lama does in order for you to get an intellectual understanding of Sunyata....which is just still a basic pointing to...you can only go so far until that moment happens and you become the infinite...even those last four words don't do it justice....words can't...

the experiences are always the same no matter how smart you are, educated you are, and how well you can display grammar skills...

all i am saying is greg seems to be able to do this beautiful thing with poetry and words and then he had to apologize for it...which is weird...
i saw him brow beaten into submission...his honesty came to the forefront and he had to admit that yes that too was intellectualizing...thereby destroying his point....

[tobes]

Dear Tobes,

Why do you assume this? I have only been on this forum for a very short while, and I have already learned a great deal from other posters. How do you know people aren't seeing the finger for exactly what it is (i.e. a provisional tool of upaya)?

I assumed this because instead of commenting on the subject of the post/poem you launch a criticism of the medium (ie written form, concepts, "view") and others even directly attacked me.

I see. In my own case, I was directly responding to the framing of this thread and this stanza you included in your first post:

Engrossed in theories, concepts and tomes
the scholar flaunts their knowledge like a peacock fanning its tail.
But not even a million words can accurately describe
that single moment of meditative experience and realisation.

I think the meaning of this is pretty unambiguous, and I am also quite unambiguous in my criticism, particularly of the first two lines of it.

Why?

Because sure you can have arrogant scholars, but this does not represent the entirety of scholarship.

Just as you can have arrogant meditators, but this does represent the entirety of meditation.

The great scholars I have met have almost without exception being exceptionally humble.

And Buddhist history is filled with inspiring exemplars of people who embody both: the humble scholar who is also a realised meditator.

They may speak or write a million erudite words which assist a myriad of sentient beings attain liberation......whilst never failing to appreciate the last two lines of the stanza:

But not even a million words can accurately describe
that single moment of meditative experience and realisation

So in the final analysis, I think you pose a false dichotomy which is ironically dualistic.

[tobes]

PS For us ignoramouses out here could you please provide Englishs translation of sanskrit (and other Dharma language) terms you use (in brackets or as a footnote) so that we don't have to cruise the internet everytime in order to understand you? Thanks!

Sorry, don't take it from the odd well timed deployment of a Sanskrit word that a/ I know Sanskrit or b/ am any less of an ignoramous.

As it stands, I had to google papanca (conceptual proliferation) because I didn't know how to spell it, and wasn't entirely convinced that it was the right word.

[tobes]

And what is (for me) over-intellectualisation? When the discussion of a point of interest related to Dharma no longer has any direct bearing on practice. I believe that we must learn, teach, debate, analyse, theorise, etc... but for the sake of a more refined, conclusive and sucessful practice. Otherwise it just becomes, well...

I don't think we can ever really know when this happens. Even flogging a dead horse on some seemingly arbitrary point can often produce understanding at some point in the future....which has a direct bearing on a more refined, conclusive and successful practice.

The smallest seed of dharma can still bear fruit. All of these conversations are extremely precious.

[tobes]

The middle path people the middle path....

I see Greg and most here as intellectuals well beyond the ordinary.

All of you are well versed in Buddhism...

why start attacking each other with this crappolla....

Ah well, Buddhists love a good debate. Ever seen the Tibetans do the hand clap "Haaa Tzaaa" upon making a winning point? Actually there should be an emoticon which does that, although, I'm sure it would be badly abused!

all i am saying is greg seems to be able to do this beautiful thing with poetry and words and then he had to apologize for it...which is weird...
i saw him brow beaten into submission...his honesty came to the forefront and he had to admit that yes that too was intellectualizing...thereby destroying his point....

I don't think this is quite the case. I don't think Greg has just been deploying an aesthetic response.....I think he has been quite wisely articulating a position on the limits of language and concepts, and has often articulated this in contexts where he feels the thread is pointless or absurd and maybe needs to be derailed a bit.

And occasionally, as Huseng pointed it out, this has the flavour of being a bit holier than thou, even though I am quite sure that this is far from Gregs intention.

It is certainly not my intent to beat him into submission, but rather to point out that conceptual dialectics on Buddhist questions are greatly fruitful, and should be celebrated rather than derailed.

[Rael]

It is certainly not my intent to beat him into submission, but rather to point out that conceptual dialectics on Buddhist questions are greatly fruitful, and should be celebrated rather than derailed.

it wasn't you i thought was brow beating the guy by the by...
guilt is horrid a thing and it has strange bedfellows....


lol...come on!!! lighten up!!!! now that was funny....

I think everyone is supporting the middle path here ...

reminding each other of the perils of the over kill...you all are keeping the see saw of the path pretty level....

it's pretty even until one starts in with the holier than thou stuff....thats not necessary and has a hint of meaness...i don't really work well under those conditions...it always has me reacting....i've a lot of anger that i willing piss into wrathfull mouths...

[gregkavarnos]

Looking in books one finds ink and paper,
In debate and discussion, sounds and movement.
Mind is where Samsara and Nirvana dwell,
not as concepts, views and thoughts
but as reality.
Look into mind and there you will find
your liberator and your captor,
bliss and suffering,
Pure Lands and Hell realms,
the entire universe.

[Rael]

Looking in books one finds ink and paper,
In debate and discussion, sounds and movement.
Mind is where Samsara and Nirvana dwell,
not as concepts, views and thoughts
but as reality.
Look into mind and there you will find
your liberator and your captor,
bliss and suffering,
Pure Lands and Hell realms,
the entire universe.

*Dons mom's slippers and house dress*

"Well if your going to be that way Greg you will have no mind at all when your finished . Do you want that!?!"

"Now be a good boy and put out the light"
rofl....

[ground]

Looking in books one finds ink and paper,

To update this it should include: Looking on the monitor that displays internet pages one finds pixels.

Look into mind and there you will find
your liberator and your captor,
bliss and suffering,
Pure Lands and Hell realms,
the entire universe.

Eventually perception can find those pixels caused by volitional formations.

Kind regards

[Rael]

To update this it should include: Looking on the monitor that displays internet pages one finds pixels.


Eventually perception can find those pixels caused by volitional formations.

Kind regards

You know this is an excellent tool in discussing the emptiness of the computer monitor.....

voila eureka moment!!!

We see the page but on further observation it's just dots of colored light which will eventually lead with the aid of electron microscope that it's all just physics stuff....which everything looks like....eventually if you go far enough....

back to the bellness and it's emptiness in nature....so many things went into making the bell....the metal had to be mined, then refined, then shaped with the aid of a mold and many workers... finally the polishing and getting the right tone.....

taking away any one of the procedures and no bell.....

and finally left on it's own it slowly dissolves into space and time and is gone.....

but we did have the moment of hearing that perfect sound and pitch ....and felt the beauty of the smoothness and felt the cold bell in the hot room....

because everything is empty and transient in a state of constant change does not mean there is a time and place to not enjoy it... some Rinpoches have a plethora of women,(well maybe more so in the good old days) they have beautiful retreats in the best of places....thay talk about "Their" environmentally friendly organic toilets..


we don't always stop and see and hear just the bell....it rings but we are thinking of something else , distracted we look and our wandering attention is focused in a variety of different places in the room....sometimes hearing the bell and sometimes not really....this is the karmic blur...one does not get to enjoy Samsara...hahahahahahaha....

ahhhhh the hypocracy of it all.....lol....

i've lost my trend of thought and ended up in rabbit hole.....no worries it's the year of the rabbit....

[muni]

Intellect is a very useful tool, right view can follow, still no accomplishment without deep "devotion". This word must not be understood through conceptual colors. Deep devotion without any doubts, completely trustful for own nature, not for a book or text or own creations or grasping to discursive thought. We lose nothing.
Debates now possible can sharpen our intellectual insight in order to understand, meditate, then deep devotion can be guided, to own natural understanding.
But we need not all the same medicine river to follow.

Just two cents.

[Malcolm]

Apparently he was an abbot at Nalanda and teacher to Nagarjuna!
The question though is what did he learn and what did he teach?

Saraha did not only write nice dohas. He also wrote an extensive and detailed commentary on the Buddhakāpala tantra (now rather obscure), and a number of sadhanas.

[gregkavarnos]

Saraha did not only write nice dohas. He also wrote an extensive and detailed commentary on the Buddhakāpala tantra (now rather obscure), and a number of sadhanas.

Care to let us in on some details about the subjects of the sadhanas?