Intellectualism, Right View and Awakening

[gregkavarnos]

Edit: This topic has been split from the following thread:

Questioning Height

The split occurred as the original discussion encompassed whether a particular teaching is higher or lower based on the POV of the teachings or the POV of the practitioner.

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Engrossed in theories, concepts and tomes
the scholar flaunts their knowledge like a peacock fanning its tail.
But not even a million words can accurately describe
that single moment of meditative experience and realisation.

[gregkavarnos]

Or to quote Saraha:

"Hey! Unify, don't divide -
Don't make distinctions
in knowing;

in this triple world
there's one color, one:
great delight (bliss)."
Tantric Treasues: Three Collections of Mystical Verse from Buddhist India Roger R. Jackson

[Indrajala]

Engrossed in theories, concepts and tomes
the scholar flaunts their knowledge like a peacock fanning its tail.
But not even a million words can accurately describe
that single moment of meditative experience and realisation.

You are such an advanced practitioner. You should be proud of yourself.

[gregkavarnos]

Hey! I am just as guilty of what I wrote in the poem as anybody else here, but can you deny the truth of what I am saying or did you just take it as a personal affront (which it wasn't)?

[Indrajala]

Hey! I am just as guilty of what I wrote in the poem as anybody else here, but can you deny the truth of what I am saying or did you just take it as a personal affront (which it wasn't)?

It comes across as a "holier than thou" piece that clearly reveals anti-intellectual sentiments on your part.

Meditate all you like, but without proper view, established through listening, reading and learning, it will all come to nothing.

[gregkavarnos]

Gotta love Saraha:

Grasping for certain knowledge,
a fool gets
only the details;

enjoying yourself
in an outcastes home,
you don't get covered with dirt.

How 'bout this one:

In each and every
living being, as well
the real exists - unrealized;

everything by nature
tastes the same - gnosis
is unsurpassed by intellect.

[gregkavarnos]

Mara stands on the shore
and casts into the ocean of samsara
the hook of concepts, baited with emotion.
Sure in the knowledge
that he will land the whale of ego!

[Mr. G]

Gotta love Saraha:

Grasping for certain knowledge,
a fool gets
only the details;

enjoying yourself
in an outcastes home,
you don't get covered with dirt.

Saraha studied at Nalanda.

This is getting a bit off topic. Would you gentlemen like a separate thread made?

[gregkavarnos]

Apparently he was an abbot at Nalanda and teacher to Nagarjuna!
The question though is what did he learn and what did he teach?
And here I will try to pull the discussion back "on track": I agree with Huseng that right view is necessary otherwise meditation will just be self absorbed meandering, a student of mine once described her meditative experience as "being in my own little white box", obviously her meditation was not fueled by right view. The thing is what does right view consist of? Nit-picking? And when right view is established of what value is continued banter? Righter view? The rightest view?

I am not anti-intellectual BUT at the same time I recognise the pitfall of overintellectualisation.

Of course, to be fair, I'll have to quote the following couplet by Saraha:

No tantra, no mantra,
no reflection, or recollection -

Hey fool! All this
is the cause of error.

Mind is unstained -
don't taint it with meditation;

you're living in bliss:
don't torment yourself.

[Mr. G]

The question though is what did he learn and what did he teach?

Hi Greg,

I look at it more being "How did he get to the state of mind where he could teach?" I think alot of people think it's unnecessary to acquire some basic understanding of the Buddhist view in order to acquire awakening, but that may be a misunderstanding. If a scholar or non-scholar achieved awakening, it would have required a tremendous amount of effort to achieve the accumulation of merit and wisdom necessary for that awakening. When we hear stories of illiterate pracitioners reaching some state on the path, we forget sometimes that to have done so, some time in the past they accumulated the two heaps (unless there's some Dzogchen POV that short circuits this).

The thing is what does right view consist of? Nit-picking? And when right view is established of what value is continued banter? Righter view? The rightest view?

The sutras and commentaries provide the framework for right view. Even the banter one sees in polemical texts assist in right view. If by nit-picking, you mean being meticulous in one's study, I see no problem.

I am not anti-intellectual BUT at the same time I recognise the pitfall of overintellectualisation.

I don't think anyone is for overintellctualization.

[Rael]

warning, more ramblings from Rael who might have got to close to the aerosol can lol...take em with a grain of sand

Engrossed in theories, concepts and tomes
the scholar flaunts their knowledge like a peacock fanning its tail.
But not even a million words can accurately describe
that single moment of meditative experience and realisation.

You are such an advanced practitioner. You should be proud of yourself.

there seems to me to be a problem Houston!!!

Hey! I am just as guilty of what I wrote in the poem as anybody else here, but can you deny the truth of what I am saying or did you just take it as a personal affront (which it wasn't)?

It comes across as a "holier than thou" piece that clearly reveals anti-intellectual sentiments on your part.

Meditate all you like, but without proper view, established through listening, reading and learning, it will all come to nothing.

I dare say that some here might have misconstrued me as being ANTI-INTELLECTUAL.....rofl!!!!!
I have to say now, i grew up with a Beat Nik dad who brought home friends i was allowed to listen to and not be heard...i love true intellectual debate that leads to something other than the dreaded ego dance.

I always find it frightening when in a Buddhist discussion intellectual debate supersedes experience and growth and vice versa.
It usually comes from someone bereft of experience but scholarly in discussion, where as the person with experience can be shod off with mental problems...lol.

first up the piece of poetry on top is lucid and correct..why ridicule it?..lol....and with such authority....lol...Please note I live the Buddha's edict to question authority....

Bodhisattva Sariputra comes to mind...didn't he have intellect to the point of obscuring practice...maybe i have it wrong...

Meditate all you like, but without proper view, established through listening, reading and learning, it will all come to nothing

you ridicule poetry , which are words and yet

Meditate all you like

those words are little harsh and destructive and an air of ....hmmmm...i dunno but it has an air to it....lol....

The poem doesn't necessarily reject intellectualism so much as it warns against such things as too much internet use for the ordained....lol......

[Rael]

The middle path people the middle path....

I see Greg and most here as intellectuals well beyond the ordinary.

All of you are well versed in Buddhism...

why start attacking each other with this crappolla....

[Rael]

As per the title of the thread...

is their a difference between cognitive skills and awareness.

Sort of gets blended in this body , i realize that, but the point of Buddhism is to be Fully Awakened, or Aware....

Doesn't a physiological process have to take place in the human form for it to happen.

the whole intellectualizing the Buddha's reason for His advent and teachings , has little to do with the process...

right view....do you need a degree in philosophy or be a Geshe to have right view...i don't think so....


and you know i regret my last two posts....in the sense they have a tad of sundry anger to them...i allowed myself to get emotional.....but i will leave them ....

[ground]

right view....do you need a degree in philosophy or be a Geshe to have right view...i don't think so....

Neither do I. It is quite straightforward

Sammaditthi Sutta


Kind regards

[Astus]

What is intellectualising? My answer for this is that it is solely for the purpose of defining concepts to elaborate on ideas. Is that something wrong? I don't think so. Is that relevant to Buddhism? Not really. There are lot of sutras with dozens of commentaries and even more treatises written about those texts. Is that just intellectualising, a "l'art pour l'art" thing? Hardly ever. Studying, analysing and contemplating are common practices of Buddhism. And they're not just good for the one cultivating it but also helpful for letting people learn and understand the Dharma. And in the end, pondering about the uselessness of intellectualising is intellectualising.

[tobes]

Mara stands on the shore
and casts into the ocean of samsara
the hook of concepts, baited with emotion.
Sure in the knowledge
that he will land the whale of ego!

What I find odd about this approach is that you're using concepts to assert a view.

But you somehow manage to disavow that this what you're doing: it is merely what everyone else here is doing!

However, this is an internet forum which is premised on the frank and open exchange of conceptual views.

If you find this to be in basic contradiction with your understanding, why do you need to point this out to everyone?

How much conceptual effort have you spent defending your view that there is no view?

If you really want to live up to the words of Sahara, surely the only adequate response is silence.

[Hanzze]

The middle path people the middle path....

I guess today its all a middle path problem.
With a lot of fog, one takes the side of the road he can see as the measure to find the middle.
The middle is where "wanting" and "needing" meets.

And walking for a long time on the right side of the street, there will be a path made by all the footprints. Some times later, it will be clear the right path, as it is seen so clear.

Don't miss the middle stripe, it might feel safe to stay in the area one can see. If there is a strong fog, it is sometimes good to letting go of the right view and trust the right feeling. Touch (feel) what you can not see, no need to look. I guess that is what we can tell listen to your heart.

Such a pathfinder does not work intellectual and in a forest there is a wide view useless. On a high mountain, he would enjoy the overview a little and burn the landscape in his orientation, but down in the valley it has no use. There are so many other small things one needs to pay attention, roots, rocks, waterlines, mud, animal...
Slowly step by step, barefoot with compassion on the next step.
But who cares, we have gps and saftyshoes and guides *meeeeeeeeeeee mä mä - bike* and we can do it fast

[ground]

There is a difference between sophistry and discerning wisdom. And this difference applies to thoughts expounded in both formats, prose and verse.


Kind regards

[Rael]

Mara stands on the shore
and casts into the ocean of samsara
the hook of concepts, baited with emotion.
Sure in the knowledge
that he will land the whale of ego!

What I find odd about this approach is that you're using concepts to assert a view.

But you somehow manage to disavow that this what you're doing: it is merely what everyone else here is doing!

However, this is an internet forum which is premised on the frank and open exchange of conceptual views.

If you find this to be in basic contradiction with your understanding, why do you need to point this out to everyone?

How much conceptual effort have you spent defending your view that there is no view?

If you really want to live up to the words of Sahara, surely the only adequate response is silence.

Actually i took it as he using his intellect to point out that practice is vital where as intellectualizing is still all so sundry ....for me it's droll...but i'm addicted to people that can impress me with it....i adore the mind knowing full well it is a huge trap......but i sit and read ...or have coffee with....

It's like this ....your in an Tantric initiation and one guy is desperately trying to pronounce the Tibetan words the Lama is asking us to say after him ....Worried sick if he somehow mispronounces some word , which he has no idea of it's meaning anyway, he won't get initiated or something.....

then it's like me, i'm more like absorbing it all in with heart chakra where my mind is kept ...who cares if i say it right....

wow the lama is saying all this ancient sadhana stuff that can effect me without me knowing what he is doing or saying ...there's Buddhas and Dakinnis here and i can feel their energy pouring into the room and out in the street passerby's are benefiting as well....

ok so on some level i am intellectualizing all this....but not really...if you knew me you would see i'm just some crazed guy wanting to burn my coccyx

[gregkavarnos]

Dear Tobes,

If I was in your physical presence I may try to display the twin miracle (and fail dismally, of course) or attempt Tilopas final method to get Naropa to quit thinking and pull off my wooden clog and beat you between the eyes 'til you fall down unconscious (though that would probably end up in assault and battery charges and a short stint in jail) but this is an internet forum (as you are fond of informing me) so I guess I just have to use words and concepts. Again though, we are getting stuck on the finger and missing the moon.

What amuses me though is that some people here define my poems as personally oriented attacks when all I am doing is using metaphors to describe a general situation: You would deny that concepts, coloured by emotions, cause negative thoughts and feelings to arise and bind us more tightly to samsaric existence through our egoistic responses?

PS This is probably the most polite way anybody has ever told me to "Shut the **** up!"

If you really want to live up to the words of Sahara, surely the only adequate response is silence.

But I think that you will find that Saraha wrote many of his couplets as a response to all his critics when they chased him out of Nalanda for having sexual relations with a Dalit (Outcast) girl.