Dr. Reginald Ray

[Mr. G]

It is fascinating how nobody actually tried to look up in Dr. Ray's many publications what he says about rebirth. He had a two part article on it in Shambhala Sun (not bad ones either):

"Karma’s central place in the tradition is shown by the Buddha's own enlightenment, which consisted of nothing but seeing the full range and extent of karma-that nothing in the universe stands outside karma’s domain."

Understanding Karma
The Practice of Karma

One extra: On the Importance of Relating to Unseen Beings

Thanks for that Astus. I particularly enjoyed these comments:

Nothing is excluded, down to the number of eyelashes we have and the color of our fingernails and whether we are having a good or bad day. All of these come about because of specific actions that we have carried out in the past.

and this one:

One moment of consciousness, acting as a principal cause, transfers its karmic burden to the next, during our life and at our death.

I retract my statements as it seems that Ray does believe in literal rebirth. His previous statement seems to be taken out of context then.

[Jnana]

I retract my statements as it seems that Ray does believe in literal rebirth. His previous statement seems to be taken out of context then.

Good stuff Gordo.

All the best,

Geoff

[Mr. G]

I retract my statements as it seems that Ray does believe in literal rebirth. His previous statement seems to be taken out of context then.

Good stuff Gordo.

All the best,

Geoff

Yes, best to you as well.

[Chaz]

I retract my statements as it seems that Ray does believe in literal rebirth. His previous statement seems to be taken out of context then.

[Dharmakara]

My favorite book by Ray is "Buddhist Saints in India: A Study in Buddhist Values and Orientations", very good scholarship and worth every penny. If anyone is unfamiliar with the book, you can find an exerpt from it dealing with Devadatta here:

http://www.mahabodhi.net/devadatta.pdf

A series of tragic events occurred when the Buddha was 72 years old, during the 37th year of his teaching, when his cousin Devadatta is said to have initiated a schism within the ranks of the Sangha, then instigated a palace coup in the city of Rajagriha, the capital of the kingdom of Magadha, and supposedly made four attempts to assassinate the Buddha.

It is said that these events were a great test of the Buddha’s wisdom, compassion, patience, equanimity, and ability to skillfully lead the Sangha in the face of external and internal threats to its survival and integrity, but it should be noted that doubts have been cast on the veracity of the legend of Devadatta as told in the canonical literature and commentaries of the various schools of Buddhism.

Ray argues that it's possible that Devadatta was no relation nor even a contemporary of the Buddha, but may have been a strict proponent of the life of the forest renunciant who opposed the softer life of monastic Buddhism over a century after the Buddha’s passing. This Devadatta apparently created a Sangha that considered itself a separate and purer stream of Buddhism than the Sangha founded by Shakyamuni Buddha.

Devadatta’s rival order still existed in India as late as the seventh century C.E. according to Hsuan-tsang (602-664).

[Adamantine]

It is fascinating how nobody actually tried to look up in Dr. Ray's many publications what he says about rebirth. He had a two part article on it in Shambhala Sun (not bad ones either):

"Karma’s central place in the tradition is shown by the Buddha's own enlightenment, which consisted of nothing but seeing the full range and extent of karma-that nothing in the universe stands outside karma’s domain."

Understanding Karma
The Practice of Karma

One extra: On the Importance of Relating to Unseen Beings

The discussion is really about a radio interview from a couple years ago, and those articles are dated 2001-2. So one would presume the latest is the most relevant to his current view on the matter.

[Adamantine]

Also, the original discussion with Malcom / Namdrol was not just about rebirth, but about the new local dharma protector that Ray had 'discovered' in the mountains of Crestone which he mentions in the same interview. Obviously, the question of discarding rebirth is a major one. I thing it could make sense that he doesn't "push" the belief on new students, especially given that his own teacher developed the Shambhala Terma teachings which were originally intended as a secular practice of Dharma, not Buddhist per se, which followers of other faiths could comfortably practice. However, Ray claims to be teaching Buddhism, and giving Buddhist empowerments, etc. so if he discards rebirth in this context then that becomes a false presentation. Malcolm also quoted Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche from a teaching in Walden which I was also at, where Rinpoche actually brought up this very issue of Western Dharma teachers discarding rebirth.. and he made a very clear and powerful point that Dharma as we know it is completely lost at this point-- because ultimately as Dharma practitioners we should be highly focused on the fruits of future lives, as opposed to the limited focus on immediate benefit in just this life. If we didn't believe in rebirth he said, we mine as well just rob a bank and escape to retire to a luxurious place in the caribbean. Why practice Dharma, when in fact the purification of it may cause us more suffering in this very life? These were more or less his words. And let's not forget, DKR can be quite modern!

[Mr. G]

Also, the original discussion with Malcom / Namdrol was not just about rebirth, but about the new local dharma protector that Ray had 'discovered' in the mountains of Crestone which he mentions in the same interview. Seems very Guru Rinpoche like of him. It also seems he is incorporating some shamanistic things from other tropical cultures into his teaching presentations. Obviously, the question of discarding rebirth is a major one. I thing it could make sense that he doesn't "push" the belief on new students, especially given that his own teacher developed the Shambhala Terma teachings which were originally intended as a secular practice of Dharma, not Buddhist per se, which followers of other faiths could comfortably practice. However, Ray claims to be teaching Buddhism, and giving Buddhist empowerments, etc. so if he discards rebirth in this context then that becomes a false presentation. Malcolm also quoted Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche from a teaching in Walden which I was also at, where Rinpoche actually brought up this very issue of Western Dharma teachers discarding rebirth.. and he made a very clear and powerful point that Dharma as we know it is completely lost at this point-- because ultimately as Dharma practitioners we should be highly focused on the fruits of future lives, as opposed to the limited focus on immediate benefit in just this life. If we didn't believe in rebirth he said, we mine as well just rob a bank and escape to retire to a luxurious place in the caribbean. Why practice Dharma, when in fact the purification of it may cause us more suffering in this very life? These were more or less his words. And let's not forget, DKR can be quite modern!

Interesting background information. Thanks

[Mr. G]

The discussion is really about a radio interview from a couple years ago, and those articles are dated 2001-2. So one would presume the latest is the most relevant to his current view on the matter.

Hi Adamantine,

You wouldn't happen to know where I could locate that interview would you?

[Aemilius]

What does that have to with him denying rebirth?

It's not like Reggie Ray is writing books denying rebirth and running around talking to anyone who will hear him talk about denying rebirth.

There is no scriptural support for rebirth as a metaphor no matter how some people like to stretch it.

Trungpa Rinpoche "psychologized" the teachings on the six realms in order to make them more meaningful to his students. Ray is one of those students. Ray is apparently continuing with this same approach. (As is often the case with Ani Pema and other senior students of Trungpa Rinpoche who are now teachers.)

It's almost laughable.

What would be laughable -- if it weren't so utterly lamentable -- is the almost palpable sense of self-righteous indignation and arrogance pulsing behind your statement. Do you find the teachings of Trungpa Rinpoche to be "almost laughable"?

In all honesty, why practice Buddhism if one doesn't believe in rebirth?

In all honesty, Buddhism is about confronting and challenging oneself and one's beliefs on every level. It's not about merely replacing an atheistic worldview or a Judeo-Christian worldview with an Indian worldview. As Ray says in Touching Enlightenment: Finding Realization in the Body:

Buddhism, in its most subtle and sophisticated expression, is not a tradition that seeks to provide answers to life's questions or to dispense "wisdom" to allay our fundamental angst. Rather, it challenges us to look beyond any and all answers that we may have found along the way, to meet ourselves in a naked, direct, and fearless fashion.

And:

The role of tradition, at least according to Buddhism, is thus not to limit the search, the experience, the journey, but to open us to it — tradition here is inspiration, challenge, and provocation, and some helpful practices, not a set of answers.

This is by far a more refined and challenging approach than your "[W]hy practice Buddhism if one doesn't believe in rebirth?"

All the best,

Geoff

Saying "I existed in a past (life)", and saying "I did not exist in a past (life)", are both forms of grasping at an "I" in the skandhas.

[Mr. G]

Saying "I existed in a past (life)", and saying "I did not exist in a past (life)", are both forms of grasping at an "I" in the skandhas.

Sure, utlimately speaking.

[Adamantine]

The discussion is really about a radio interview from a couple years ago, and those articles are dated 2001-2. So one would presume the latest is the most relevant to his current view on the matter.

Hi Adamantine,

You wouldn't happen to know where I could locate that interview would you?

No, -when I have more time I will poke around and see if I can locate it online. There is of course a chance it's not available anymore. This was at least two years ago.

[Jikan]

On the topic of the new Dharma protector, this is from Ray's Dharma Ocean website:

Spiritual leaders have long acknowledged the potency of the area, singling it out as one of the best places in the world for retreat practice. Reggie Ray, upon climbing the mountain known as Kit Carson, encountered the energy of Ritrö Gönpo, the Protector of Mountain Retreats, watching over the valley and its practice activities. Ritrö Gönpo has subsequently become a major protector of Dharma Ocean, our community, and our work.

http://www.dharmaocean.org/default/inde ... e-colorado

EDIT:

and somewhere else on the same site I learned that Ritrö Gönpo is in fact an emanation of Vajrakilaya.

Question: at what point does this discovery of what seems to be a bit more than a local protector put Ray in the position, effectively, of claiming to be a terton?

[Mr. G]

On the topic of the new Dharma protector, this is from Ray's Dharma Ocean website:

Spiritual leaders have long acknowledged the potency of the area, singling it out as one of the best places in the world for retreat practice. Reggie Ray, upon climbing the mountain known as Kit Carson, encountered the energy of Ritrö Gönpo, the Protector of Mountain Retreats, watching over the valley and its practice activities. Ritrö Gönpo has subsequently become a major protector of Dharma Ocean, our community, and our work.

http://www.dharmaocean.org/default/inde ... e-colorado

EDIT:

and somewhere else on the same site I learned that Ritrö Gönpo is in fact an emanation of Vajrakilaya.

Question: at what point does this discovery of what seems to be a bit more than a local protector put Ray in the position, effectively, of claiming to be a terton?

Hi Jikan,

I read that too. I guess this is the face of Tibetan Buddhism in the West now? I don't know.

[Rael]

I don't know any of the people in question..doc reg included...

the whole shambala thing is for me something I'm glad i did not find....and i have no idea why i said that...

i get weird vibes from it ,is all....

But this Malcolm thing i would like to say something....

his statement reminds me a very well respected Rabbi in New York City who got himself into hot water over his reincarnation remarks and the holocaust..

He plainly said looking back everyone that suffered through holocaust had to, do to unfinished business down here on earth...

i did not know that Jews believed in reincarnation and on further research, they indeed do, except most don't realize it is part of their religion....they play it down for they know that this life is the most important right here and now...


thats what i gleemed from this blurb that is more than likely taken out of context of Malcolm's whole Buddhist View...

the fact the attack came from esangha is no surprise as well...that place was a political quagmire at times...and modded with sometimes unwavering "Bias."....lol......


I've had a few lamas say they there are dangers when your society and government preaches reincarnation.....the common folk can lend themselves to procrastination on a galactic scale....lol

[Mr. G]

thats what i gleemed from this blurb that is more than likely taken out of context of Malcolm's whole Buddhist View...

Actually yes, completely out of context.

the fact the attack came from esangha is no surprise as well...that place was a political quagmire at times...and modded with sometimes unwavering "Bias."....lol......

Yes, bias against the adharmic.

[Rael]

thats what i gleemed from this blurb that is more than likely taken out of context of Malcolm's whole Buddhist View...

Actually yes, completely out of context.

the fact the attack came from esangha is no surprise as well...that place was a political quagmire at times...and modded with sometimes unwavering "Bias."....lol......

Yes, bias against the adharmic.

i'm just saying what is inside me head and what pops up.....lol....sorry if it steps on toes....lol....

one really has to be careful when deciding what is Dharma,a and what is Adharmic......

I mean clearly the piece in question is just being used out of context....but then again if you want to be anal....he did say this so therefore hang the man.....


i loathe when people get together...have a discussion and turns into people speaking like their are in a legal court....

you lose so much.....and condemn so little.....

[Mr. G]

one really has to be careful when deciding what is Dharma,a and what is Adharmic......

I agree. However the denial of rebirth is Adharmic.

but then again if you want to be anal....he did say this so there ore hang the man.....

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Which statement was said by whom?

i loathe when people get together...have a discussion and turns into people speaking like their are in a legal court....

Interesting, as I loathe when people speak vaguely and ambiguously to the point where they hang their coats on the nihilistic edge.

[Rael]

delete this please

[Rael]

oh god ..my computer skills are worse than me grammar