Dr. Reginald Ray

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:02 pm

Chaz wrote:There are some people who, in their own estimation, get to make that distinction.


I think Sakya Pandita used a good measure for Tibetan Buddhism:

Whatever was spoken by the Buddhas, compiled by the Councils, realized in meditation by siddhas, expounded by learned experts (panditas),
translated by translators, and widely recognized by the learned - that alone is the Buddha's Doctrine that should be studied, taught and practiced.


Chaz, how would you make the distinction?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:22 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Chaz wrote:
Adamantine wrote:That all said, as far as R.Ray is concerned, I suppose we'll just have to be patient and see how he follows up with this discarding reincarnation business -- and how this discovering-protectors type activity plays out. I was actually excited to learn more about him since he did seem like a dynamic western Dharma teacher.. and then I heard that interview and I avoided seeing him speak when he came to my area because it raised so many questions.


That was foolish.


How so?


Pretty simple. To avoid a teacher and his/her teaching because of a personal and entirely subjective opinion, is in essense an opinion with no inherant reality. It has no substance. Thus the avoidance is equally insubstantial - unreasonable and irrational. In addition, in avoiding the teacher you purposly avoid an opportunity to get clarification on whatever it is that causes the negative opinion in the first place. All teachers, Ray included, are open to honest and respectful questioning. You can get clarification on the issue - you just have to be in the right place with your hand in the air. If you stay away, your doomed to wallow in willful ignorance. In other words you place your own subjective (and very possibly incorrect) reasoning above that of a highly respected teacher. It places what you think about something above the reality of it.

That is foolish.

Our friend Admantine wants to wait and see how this business with RR and rebirth goes, but deliberatly avoids an opportunity to hear the man teach and possibly meet, get to know and even gain clarification for himself? A golden opportunity presents itself and he shines it on.

That is foolish.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:28 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Chaz wrote:There are some people who, in their own estimation, get to make that distinction.


I think Sakya Pandita used a good measure for Tibetan Buddhism:

Whatever was spoken by the Buddhas, compiled by the Councils, realized in meditation by siddhas, expounded by learned experts (panditas),
translated by translators, and widely recognized by the learned - that alone is the Buddha's Doctrine that should be studied, taught and practiced.


Chaz, how would you make the distinction?


Well, I choose to not make a distinction at all. I don't care what other's believe about rebirth. I don't care what others teach about rebirth. I do think that to make such a huge deal about it is pointless, absurd and a complete waste of time.

I also tend to adhere to the 4 Seals of Dharma - and not what the Sakya Pandita says.

if a teaching complies with these 4 seals:

1.All compounded things are impermanent.
2.All stained emotions are painful.
3.All phenomena are empty.
4.Nirvana is peace.

Then it's in compliance with the Buddha's teaching. I've never heard or read anything by Ray that goes against those 4 seals. Thus, he's ok in my book.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:38 pm

Chaz wrote:Pretty simple. To avoid a teacher and his/her teaching because of a personal and entirely subjective opinion, is in essense an opinion with no inherant reality. It has no substance. Thus the avoidance is equally insubstantial - unreasonable and irrational.


I think you are conflating the relative with the ultimate. Adamantine is expressing his opinion that the recording or Ray may contradict his earlier writings on rebirth. If so, Adamantine is basing his statements on the fact that Buddhism accepts rebirth in the literal sense. If it seems that Ray does not believe in rebirth in the literal sense, then I think Adamantine is using his judgment quite logically.

Given what you've said, one could easily say that L. Ron Hubbard is a Buddhist who teaches Buddhism. I mean if every view is empty, it really doesn't matter if we say that L Ron Hubbard, Charles Manson or Henry Lee Lucas are Buddhists that are teaching Buddhism in a revolutionary way. We can't extol the virtues of the ultimate while ignoring the relative.

In addition, in avoiding the teacher you purposly avoid an opportunity to get clarification on whatever it is that causes the negative opinion in the first place. All teachers, Ray included, are open to honest and respectful questioning. You can get clarification on the issue - you just have to be in the right place with your hand in the air. If you stay away, your doomed to wallow in willful ignorance. In other words you place your own subjective (and very possibly incorrect) reasoning above that of a highly respected teacher. It places what you think about something above the reality of it.

That is foolish.


I think he just meant that he got some different vibes than you do. If he said that he went to a teaching by H.H. Sakya Trizin and got nothing from it because he had no connection, it wouldn't bother me.

Our friend Admantine wants to wait and see how this business with RR and rebirth goes, but deliberatly avoids an opportunity to hear the man teach and possibly meet, get to know and even gain clarification for himself? A golden opportunity presents itself and he shines it on.

That is foolish.


Or perhaps he's researched deep enough for his own needs to make his own personal decision.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:48 pm

Chaz wrote:Well, I choose to not make a distinction at all. I don't care what other's believe about rebirth. I don't care what others teach about rebirth. I do think that to make such a huge deal about it is pointless, absurd and a complete waste of time.

I also tend to adhere to the 4 Seals of Dharma - and not what the Sakya Pandita says.

if a teaching complies with these 4 seals:

1.All compounded things are impermanent.
2.All stained emotions are painful.
3.All phenomena are empty.
4.Nirvana is peace.

Then it's in compliance with the Buddha's teaching. I've never heard or read anything by Ray that goes against those 4 seals. Thus, he's ok in my book.


4. Nirvana is peace

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32


Craving (tanha) -

"There are these three cravings. Which three? Craving for sensuality,
craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. These are the three cravings."
-— Iti 58

"Monks, I don't envision even one other fetter — fettered by which beings conjoined go wandering and transmigrating on for a long, long time — like the fetter of craving. Fettered with the fetter of craving, beings conjoined go wandering and transmigrating on for a long, long time."

— Iti 15
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:23 pm

mr. gordo wrote: Adamantine is expressing his opinion that the recording or Ray may contradict his earlier writings on rebirth. If so, Adamantine is basing his statements on the fact that Buddhism accepts rebirth in the literal sense. If it seems that Ray does not believe in rebirth in the literal sense, then I think Adamantine is using his judgment quite logically.


No, not logically at all. What something seems to be and what it turns out to actually be is often two entirely different things. What we think about anything is largely irrelevant, and especially so if what we think about something runs counter to reality. If you think that a teacher teaches x when in fact the teacher teaches z makes the assesment of x largely irrelevant. To get to the real deal in a case such as this, direct contact with the source is essential.

The truth is none of us really knows what Ray believes in this regard - all we have are bits and pieces of information that give rise to subjective and very possibly incorrect assments.

So, to seek the teacher directly is the most sensible and logical approach. If the teacher is available to be questioned, then there is no logical reason to not not approach him or her to seek clrification. To avoid such an opportunity, especially when so convenient (it's not like Adamantine had to travel to Ray's home base in Crestone), is just plain foolish.

I think he just meant that he got some different vibes than you do.


Obviously.

If he said that he went to a teaching by H.H. Sakya Trizin and got nothing from it because he had no connection, it wouldn't bother me.


Me either.

However if he said that Sakya trizin was teaching adharma and refused to attend a teaching where confusion might be clarified, I would deem that foolish.

Or perhaps he's researched deep enough for his own needs to make his own personal decision.


Perhaps. However, I would tend to view that as a species of close-mindedness and that also is foolish.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:45 pm

Chaz wrote:No, not logically at all. What something seems to be and what it turns out to actually be is often two entirely different things. What we think about anything is largely irrelevant, and especially so if what we think about something runs counter to reality. If you think that a teacher teaches x when in fact the teacher teaches z makes the assesment of x largely irrelevant. To get to the real deal in a case such as this, direct contact with the source is essential.

The truth is none of us really knows what Ray believes in this regard - all we have are bits and pieces of information that give rise to subjective and very possibly incorrect assments.

So, to seek the teacher directly is the most sensible and logical approach. If the teacher is available to be questioned, then there is no logical reason to not not approach him or her to seek clrification. To avoid such an opportunity, especially when so convenient (it's not like Adamantine had to travel to Ray's home base in Crestone), is just plain foolish.


Yes, in reality it would be great if we could all visit very single teacher we have an interest in and get honest answers. Realistically, as it was brought up before, there is a certain ambiguity and vagueness surrounding Ray which may seem off-putting as in stating publically the personal revelation of a protector one is in contact with. I would think this is something would be kept within his students and not pronounced openly on a website. As we can see this type of action creates more questions and possible discord. Foolishness works both ways.

However if he said that Sakya trizin was teaching adharma and refused to attend a teaching where confusion might be clarified, I would deem that foolish.


Which is why I have not seen an Adharmic statement from H.H. Sakya Trizin. And if one
were to encounter such a statement, there is enough open communication so that
one get that clarification without having to visit H.H. Sakya Trizin personally. Sakya monks
are willing to have phone and email communication with people who have questions. Can the
same be said with Ray?


Perhaps. However, I would tend to view that as a species of close-mindedness and that also is foolish.


I don't think you've used the word "foolish" enough in this thread. :P
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Rael » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:31 pm

I would like to add to when i said ,who is to say what is Dharma and what is Adharma ;

I'm really into Raja yoga and Holy Inner Alchemy. Both of which came into my life after my introduction to Buddhism.

When i discuss "Things" i know when i'm discussing Buddhist thought and non Buddhist thought...I'm not that well educated in Buddhism...more than the average but not as much as say someone like that Namdrol dude at Esanga...i was impressed with his knowledge on so many things...and felt like i was being taught.....

But i was always wary...always, for some reason ,for i knew he wasn't a traditional Geshe or Rinpoche... and i sort of have this safety valve where i don't absorb what he said and make it my own Buddhist Dharma "repertoire"...

thats me.....thats my safety valve....

It's the same when i talk about "Things" i always make it clear what is Buddhist and what is some other philosophy ...where it comes from.....



when the dreaded NSA/ nichiren shoshu break up occurred a few years later all this splinter groups appeared...

i atteneded some and people wanted to actually change the language of the prayers (gongyo) into an english translation...and some wanted to even change the mantra...into english...rofl!!!

I'm glad i was there.....i saw what defiling the practice could do .....

the split and all that happened in my estimation destroyed any magic that was there and it became some <snip>form of Buddhism...

now that we know that Nichiren and his masters believed in the sci fi epic we know as the Lotus Sutra to literally have happened...well...for me...it's just no longer works....there is no mystic left even...

but it did indeed work for me ...so in this instance when i meet practioners i keep my "knowledge" on the down low and just leave it at"the Soka Gakki does great work. Your president Ikedia is amazing"...and they are happy....

is that a sin...rofl!!!!!

ok thats enough of me head for now


oh i like old school Tibetan authenticated Buddhism that these doctors and Namdrols had to go through to get where they are....

toodles....
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:46 pm

Chaz wrote:
Adamantine wrote:That all said, as far as R.Ray is concerned, I suppose we'll just have to be patient and see how he follows up with this discarding reincarnation business -- and how this discovering-protectors type activity plays out. I was actually excited to learn more about him since he did seem like a dynamic western Dharma teacher.. and then I heard that interview and I avoided seeing him speak when he came to my area because it raised so many questions.


That was foolish.


Perhaps you're right. I did think of attending
the teaching and bringing up these issues, in the
form of questions. But since I'd already clearly
heard him state that belief in reincarnation didn't have
much value I felt that going to a teaching just
to question him on that would have been with
a confrontational intention, not a pure motivation
to learn Dharma. I have enough pure yogi teachers
who are not teaching Dharma that changes with
the trends of the time. I'm not searching for a new teacher. I'd initially thought of
going to make a connection with someone who was a westerner
that had truly assimilated the teachings and was holding the
lineage purely.
However, by attending a Dharma teaching with someone who
is teaching Vajrayana, one is created a real link between
oneself and that teacher, and although it's not an empowerment
, one should still regard this teacher with
pure vision, at least this my understanding. Ray was touring
around and appeared to be teaching completion-stage level type
of material. It just didn't seem proper for me to
attend with the motivation of challenging him on an issue
I'd already clearly heard him expound his view on.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:49 pm

Namdrol's bio:

Malcolm Smith is fully trained in Tibetan Buddhist psychology and meditation, having completed a solitary three-year retreat in 1997 and received an Acharya degree from the Sakya Institute of Cambridge, Ma in 2004.

:namaste:
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    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Rael » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:01 pm

mr. gordo wrote:Namdrol's bio:

Malcolm Smith is fully trained in Tibetan Buddhist psychology and meditation, having completed a solitary three-year retreat in 1997 and received an Acharya degree from the Sakya Institute of Cambridge, Ma in 2004.

:namaste:

thanks for clarifying and i'm not knocking the guy...

i just PREFER and old school Geshe or tibetan rinpoche....

it's my perception on the matter....

that being said i'm 55.....

i'l prolly make 80....
thats 2036...

if i come back to this lovely planet lets say the same timeline of my interest brings us to 2056.....

can you imagine me trying to find old school teachers...like i have had the privilege of encountering....


when i was 15 it was either TM or the Hare Krishnas....lol....or books on the Tarot....

it was a chore to find stuff...

Lobsang Rampa came to me at 20......lol.......


so it is inevitable that the Namdrol's of this world will have huge followings and people prostrating to them....
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:03 pm

Just to further clarify: I personally have full
confidence in the literal fact of reincarnation.
I have enough information, from experience, inference,
and actual collected data, to have full confidence in
it without the slightest sense of it being any kind
of blind belief. There are so called 'facts' that
we in the west consider fundamental empirical
data without questioning which I have much less
confidence in. So i couldn't have gone to see Ray
teach to inquire about rebirth with true sincerity:
he explained his thoughts very clearly in the interview. Only
in a pre-arranged debate format would a dialogue make
sense, or in a casual get together. Not me attending a teaching
he is giving, as one of his students.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Pero » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:17 pm

Nice to see you here Adamantine! :hi:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:42 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Chaz wrote:
Adamantine wrote:That all said, as far as R.Ray is concerned, I suppose we'll just have to be patient and see how he follows up with this discarding reincarnation business -- and how this discovering-protectors type activity plays out. I was actually excited to learn more about him since he did seem like a dynamic western Dharma teacher.. and then I heard that interview and I avoided seeing him speak when he came to my area because it raised so many questions.


That was foolish.


Perhaps you're right. I did think of attending
the teaching and bringing up these issues, in the
form of questions. But since I'd already clearly
heard him state that belief in reincarnation didn't have
much value I felt that going to a teaching just
to question him on that would have been with
a confrontational intention, not a pure motivation
to learn Dharma. I have enough pure yogi teachers
who are not teaching Dharma that changes with
the trends of the time.


How the Dharma is taught has always changed with the time, though. Its the nature of things.

I'm not searching for a new teacher. I'd initially thought of
going to make a connection with someone who was a westerner
that had truly assimilated the teachings and was holding the
lineage purely.



That's a different issue that his teachings on rebirth.

The matter of lineage is the area where I start having trouble with Reggie. 5 years ago I was seriously considering taking Reggie as my main teacher. I didn't follow though because I was uncertain of his lineage credentials after his "falling out" with the Sakyong and lacked confidence where Vajrayana is concerned. I was interested in a teacher who could lead me though yanas, and I felt that while I thought Reggie was a great teacher he couldn't fill the role I felt was needed.

I'll still go and hear him teach whenever and wherever I can, but I wouldn't seek empowerment from him.

However, by attending a Dharma teaching with someone who
is teaching Vajrayana, one is created a real link between
oneself and that teacher, and although it's not an empowerment
, one should still regard this teacher with
pure vision, at least this my understanding.


I don't think that's quite right. There's nothing wrong with attending teachings by teachers other than your root guru. Nothing wrong with taking empowerments from lamas other than your root guru. You don't have to view any teacher with "pure vision", even your own guru. In fact it's a lot healthier to see your teacher as they are and not as how you envision them to be.

Ray was touring
around and appeared to be teaching completion-stage level type
of material. It just didn't seem proper for me to
attend with the motivation of challenging him on an issue
I'd already clearly heard him expound his view on.


And in so doing you make a reputable teacher subordinate to what you think of him. Teachers like Reggie Ray wouldn't be anywhere near where they are today had they not had many years of experience dealing with students who choose to challenge them. The first time I asked him a direct question it became one of the profoundly embarrasing moments in my life. In posing a question, I basically answered it, leaving nothing for Reggie to comment on, but he was patient and gracious and restated the answer, even though he didn't really have to.

However, it seems like you had already pretty much made up your mind, for better or worse. Still, you had a golden oportunity to gain deeper insight and you let it slip.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:05 pm

Well then Chaz, we'll have to agree to disagree. We must
have a different understanding. I'm basing mine
on the Dharma I've received from my teachers...many of them
who all agree on points I've put forth. It also accords with
my own intuition. Regardless of your view that it's ok
to go to tantric level teachings or empowerments with individuals
that you see as fundamentally ordinary samsaric people, -why
would you want to? There's a combination of method and wisdom we need
to assume even as students, we still have this responsibility at this level.
It is said, if you see your teacher as being at the level of a dog, you'll get
the blessings of a dog. If you see them as a Buddha, you'll receive the blessings
of a Buddha. I've received instruction on how to listen to teachings many times,
I'm not particularly asking you for new ones..but your opinion is noted. I'm happy you've had
good, possibly profound experiences studying with R.Ray. But to make the judgement that
I missed out, was foolish not to go , etc. is itself foolish. How can you know
what my experience would have been? The only reason I could have missed out
on anything is indeed if Ray is a pure lineage holder and a realized master in his own right.
However, you don't even have enough faith in that to take him as a Vajra master
yourself so you seem to be confused about these things. I don't think we need to
discuss my personal decision any more, or your judgement of it. If I made a mistake it was
probably in writing about it here, not in the actual decision not to go.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:06 pm

Chaz wrote:Still, you had a golden oportunity to gain deeper insight and you let it slip.


Or perhaps not.
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    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:45 pm

Pero wrote:Nice to see you here Adamantine! :hi:

:thanks: :hi:
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:40 pm

Adamantine wrote:Well then Chaz, we'll have to agree to disagree.


I'm ok with that ...

We must
have a different understanding. I'm basing mine
on the Dharma I've received from my teachers...many of them
who all agree on points I've put forth.


You're not alone. My understanding wasn't found at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box.

We all have different teachers and those teachers, if they're worth anything at all, will teach each student according to their individual capacity and inlcinations.


It also accords with
my own intuition. Regardless of your view that it's ok
to go to tantric level teachings or empowerments with individuals
that you see as fundamentally ordinary samsaric people, -why
would you want to?


because they have something to offer. I see all teachers as samsaric beings. They may have realization beyond my own, but that doesn't make them anything more or less than what they are.



There's a combination of method and wisdom we need
to assume even as students, we still have this responsibility at this level.
It is said, if you see your teacher as being at the level of a dog, you'll get
the blessings of a dog. If you see them as a Buddha, you'll receive the blessings
of a Buddha.


I'm wel;l aware of the teachings you refer to. I think they come from Jamgon Kongtrul, but could be wrong. You don't have to view your teacher any of those ways. There may be blessings associated with different views of the Guru, but you don't have to make a decision as to which way you choose to view the guru. It's up to you.

I was talking about this very thing with our sangha's director of practice the other day. He was a student of Trungpa Rinpoche's. he aggreed that one of the primary reasons that so many of his students continue with strong practice today is because they didn't place the Vidyadhara on a pedestal he didn't deserve. he was, in the end, a painfully human being. He was subject to all the same shortcomings and downfalls that we all are subject to - in that regard he was as samsaric as anyone else. He was no more a fully enlightened being than you or I. Yet, he possessed a nearly inhuman degree of presence and wisdom. That is what made him so attractive to so many people. He was "real".

But to make the judgement that
I missed out, was foolish not to go , etc. is itself foolish. How can you know
what my experience would have been? The only reason I could have missed out
on anything is indeed if Ray is a pure lineage holder and a realized master in his own right.


You may be right, but I think I'll stick to my guns. It was foolish. You should have gone to see him. The next chance you get, you should go to see him. If you're within a day's drive from Crestone, you should go there and and see him.


However, you don't even have enough faith in that to take him as a Vajra master
yourself so you seem to be confused about these things.


Nope, no confusion, just a lack of certainty that has yet to find resolution. That kinda blows. You'd think that in 5 years I'd have had an opportunity to get that all straightened out, but no. Even though on the Dharma Ocean mail list I always seem to miss teachings, or have conflicting schedule, or not enough $$ for tuition or some shit like that. Really bad Karma where it comes to Reggie. At any rate I was able to reunite with my guru - it just wasn't Reggie.

I see Reggie's teaching on rebirth as being about the importance of those teachings relative to the needs of sentient beings. What I get from him is that's it's not as important as others make it out to be and that seems to have created some unneccessary and unfortunate drama. I don't see him saying that rebirth is incorrect as a dharma teaching. I tend to aggree with him. I think there are far more important things for a student to be concerned with than a belief in rebirth. "Beliefs" tend to produce obstacles to the path - they try to solidy the Dharma and reduce its spaciousness. Rather than confront a student's beliefs unnecessarily, the wiser course is to focus the student on matters of practice. Beliefs can and often change with time. A student who is successful in practice often develops the confidence that allows beliefs to change. There's nothing to be gained in pushing it.


I don't think we need to
discuss my personal decision any more, or your judgement of it. If I made a mistake it was
probably in writing about it here, not in the actual decision not to go.


No, you should have gone. Any time you have a chance to hear a good teacher teach the Dharma you should avail yourself. You owe it to yourself. You owe it to all sentient beings. You don't have to agree with the teacher 100% to benefit from their teaching.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:04 pm

Chaz wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Well then Chaz, we'll have to agree to disagree.



No, you should have gone. Any time you have a chance to hear a good teacher teach the Dharma you should avail yourself. .



I agree, in a way, but not all the way. If I've received teachings on Dharma for 20 years and keep attending teachings all the time without actually spending most of my time on practicing them then this might actually not be the right thing to be doing. In this instance, the question is if he is indeed a good teacher practicing authentic Dharma. You seem to think so. Others are skeptical. Since I had enough doubts, it was the right thing for me to do to stay away. I hope that he is a good teacher practicing authentic Dharma, and that one day this will become clear to all of us. Until then, I think I'll stick to the teachers and teachings I don't have serious doubts about.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Pero » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 pm

Chaz wrote:because they have something to offer. I see all teachers as samsaric beings. They may have realization beyond my own, but that doesn't make them anything more or less than what they are.


I'm wel;l aware of the teachings you refer to. I think they come from Jamgon Kongtrul, but could be wrong. You don't have to view your teacher any of those ways. There may be blessings associated with different views of the Guru, but you don't have to make a decision as to which way you choose to view the guru. It's up to you.


Chaz, I'm sorry but I think this is a very, very wrong view. And I think Adamantine was a bit off too. It's not mere blessings, but actual realization. So in other words, if you see your teacher as the Buddha, you will achieve the realization of the Buddha. If you see your teacher as a mere samsaric being your realization will only be samsaric as well. I have never heard or read that it is ok to view your Vajrayana teacher as an ordinary being, ever. And it is not about placing the teacher on a pedestal either. These are very wrong ideas which I suggest you discuss with your teacher because you probably won't believe me and IMO it's actually something very important.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
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