Dr. Reginald Ray

[Mr. G]

The whole rebirth statement by Malcolm , of course....hence the hanging...

What exactly was the statment? He made many statements over the years.

I'm assuming this is some thing you wish me to think is directed at me.

You would be wrong as I didn't mention your name.

My Grammar isn't the best , so maybe you should put me on ignore or something....

No need, I enjoy reading everyone's posts.

i hope the above clarifies what point i'm trying so badly to make....

Not really actually.

[Rael]

Mr Gordo i really skrewed up an edit...but i will answer your post here ...ok...

the only statement of Malcolm i am referring to is the one in this thread ...as stated i never heard of the man....


i lost a lot of what i was saying doing to trying this [quote][/quote] deal


a whole post went out the window///lol

[Rael]

People like to hang teachers and communities...

they love to take something that is written and take apart one paragraph if it suits their politics...

i was sucked into a very political money orientated Buddhist cult and learned a lot...

i have been protected in the long run for i found viable teachers that undid a lot of the bullshit....

i have a sense now to avoid such persons....and i don't really need anymore teachers...

My root Guru and the teachers he brings to that table are sufficient...


the Western practitioner that grows and develops to the point of being in a position to teach is on a edge that many would like throw stones at...


i knew of one very serious student who against the advice of his teachers went to India and actually joined the Sere Monastery.i might be wrong in the actual monastery but am sure it was this one...it was a long time ago..it was a nightmare for him and he felt the fellow monks did all they could do to persuade him in leaving...which he did and his ordeal confused me...

[Mr. G]

People like to hang teachers and communities...

they love to take something that is written and take apart one paragraph if it suits their politics...

the Western practitioner that grows and develops to the point of being in a position to teach is on a edge that many would like throw stones at...

Your concerns are in line with mine. However, if Dharma is to flourish in the West, we should take great care in analyzing those that claim attainments when they counter sutras and insights of siddhas of the past.

[Adamantine]

the only statement of Malcolm i am referring to is the one in this thread ...as stated i never heard of the man....

Hey Rael, you were on Esangha, no? If so, it's quite unlikely you wouldn't have encountered him. But his name used there was Namdrol.

[Adamantine]

On the topic of the new Dharma protector, this is from Ray's Dharma Ocean website:

Spiritual leaders have long acknowledged the potency of the area, singling it out as one of the best places in the world for retreat practice. Reggie Ray, upon climbing the mountain known as Kit Carson, encountered the energy of Ritrö Gönpo, the Protector of Mountain Retreats, watching over the valley and its practice activities. Ritrö Gönpo has subsequently become a major protector of Dharma Ocean, our community, and our work.

http://www.dharmaocean.org/default/inde ... e-colorado

EDIT:

and somewhere else on the same site I learned that Ritrö Gönpo is in fact an emanation of Vajrakilaya.

Question: at what point does this discovery of what seems to be a bit more than a local protector put Ray in the position, effectively, of claiming to be a terton?

That's interesting, in the interview I recall him saying something more along the lines of it being a mountain retreat protector, and in the context it seemed like it was a local protector, -a new one dependent on that place. I don't believe he was using a name like in the paragraph above, which implies it is the energy of an already known protector. Does anyone know about the history of a protector called Ritro Gonpo? Is it known to be an emanation of Vajrakilaya outside of this website? And have other high Lamas confirmed this entity/energy is indeed the same? The only problem I can see about this, if this is indeed a known protector, is Ray advertising that he has the ability- the special vision, to recognize such things. This seems a bit like claiming a level of realization. And then there is the question of he really is capable of this, if this is the same entity etc. This wouldn't be an issue of claiming to be a terton-- claiming special abilities and claiming terma discovery are different things. There is no sense of any terma revelation in anything he has said so far.

[Chaz]

On the topic of the new Dharma protector, this is from Ray's Dharma Ocean website:

Spiritual leaders have long acknowledged the potency of the area, singling it out as one of the best places in the world for retreat practice. Reggie Ray, upon climbing the mountain known as Kit Carson, encountered the energy of Ritrö Gönpo, the Protector of Mountain Retreats, watching over the valley and its practice activities. Ritrö Gönpo has subsequently become a major protector of Dharma Ocean, our community, and our work.

http://www.dharmaocean.org/default/inde ... e-colorado

EDIT:

and somewhere else on the same site I learned that Ritrö Gönpo is in fact an emanation of Vajrakilaya.

Question: at what point does this discovery of what seems to be a bit more than a local protector put Ray in the position, effectively, of claiming to be a terton?

That's interesting, in the interview I recall him saying something more along the lines of it being a mountain retreat protector, and in the context it seemed like it was a local protector, -a new one dependent on that place. I don't believe he was using a name like in the paragraph above, which implies it is the energy of an already known protector. Does anyone know about the history of a protector called Ritro Gonpo? Is it known to be an emanation of Vajrakilaya outside of this website? And have other high Lamas confirmed this entity/energy is indeed the same? The only problem I can see about this, if this is indeed a known protector, is Ray advertising that he has the ability- the special vision, to recognize such things. This seems a bit like claiming a level of realization. And then there is the question of he really is capable of this, if this is the same entity etc. This wouldn't be an issue of claiming to be a terton-- claiming special abilities and claiming terma discovery are different things. There is no sense of any terma revelation in anything he has said so far.

Crestone is special.

There are a number of people who have commented on the qualities of this place.

Ther 16th Karmapa visited Crestone in 1979. He felt the area would be perfect for the preservation and practice of Dharma and was given 200 acres to fullfill that vision. After HH died, a Stupa was erected there in his honor - the Tashi Gomang Stupa.

Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamsto Rinoche remarked that Crestone was one of just a few places in the world perfect for retreat practice.

Thrangu Rinpoche likes it there. He built his Vajra Vidya retreat center there and teaches a 9-day retreat in Crestone each summer. It's an event not to be missed.

I've been to Crestone many times. I love it down there. Like Khenpo Rinpoche said it's a great place for retreat. I did a 5-day retreat at Varjra Vidya last fall, and it was an experience I will not soon forget. If I could figure out a way to make a living there I'd move in a heartbeat.

Other teachers - Reggie Ray, and Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche live there. Reggie has been building an awesome center.

I don't know for sure if there really is a dharmapala inhabiting the mountains around Crestone and after all, just what is a dharma protector anyway? Regardless of that, there is a definite "presense" in Crestone, a palpable, positive energy that pervades everything. I've never been to a place quite like it.

And now Reggie Ray is self styling as a Terton? That's rich. What next? Will it be that Reggie and his wife Lee eat babies or something?

[Adamantine]

Crestone is special.

. . .

And now Reggie Ray is self styling as a Terton? That's rich. What next? Will it be that Reggie and his wife Lee eat babies or something?

It does indeed seem special. It was a sacred/holy place recognized by Native Americans long before. . . I've visited myself years back, and I have indeed heard of the various Lamas' opinions which you mentioned, as well as others. It would seem to make sense since a large collective of Vajrayana retreat centers sprung up in such a special place that it may attract the benevolent protection of a "mountain-retreat protector" who's mission and vows are to protect Vajrayana practitioners in mountain retreats. Just the idea that Reggie Ray was walking up the mountain trail and literally ran into such an entity, recognized it as such, and then started propitiating it and having his students do so too. Completely possible. That sounds great-- nothing wrong with it at all as long as this really is a valid protector. If he is at a level where he can physically perceive Dharma Protectors, and recognize them, that is a pretty high level. I would be overjoyed if many western practitioners and Dharma teachers were legitimately at that level. But why discuss your own abilities or experiences like this in a public radio interview, even it were indeed true? Is the Tibetan Lama tendency towards extreme humility really just a cultural thing, or is there a good reason for it? Generally, Lamas would not openly admit to or display siddhis they may have, and usually not discuss their special experiences . . . not publicly - maybe to very devoted students or if they were such important figures that leaving behind a proper autobiography would be helpful for the lineage devotion of future generations.. I really am just being devil's advocate, because as far as I'm concerned the more realized Western lineage holders there are the better.. but if they are not themselves Buddhas yet, and corrupt or alter the teachings for the trends of the time, or make false claims of realization-- then this is a degeneration of the Dharma pure and simple.

[Rael]

People like to hang teachers and communities...

they love to take something that is written and take apart one paragraph if it suits their politics...

the Western practitioner that grows and develops to the point of being in a position to teach is on a edge that many would like throw stones at...

Your concerns are in line with mine. However, if Dharma is to flourish in the West, we should take great care in analyzing those that claim attainments when they counter sutras and insights of siddhas of the past.

Yes indeed...

i worry when someone has to tell the world they have attained something...

the worry is in the power they wish to hold over those that don't ...lol...

i think people that attain things for real keep it quiet...one have to be in a position of learning something one on one to see it....or drag it out of them....

so did this Namdrol/ malcom guy claim attainments and siddhis...

or does he just discuss Dharma from his view and what he has learned.


this whole mountain protector deity...are people afraid of some sort of retribution to question it....

I never fear dharma protectors causing harm...

i do fear people who wish harm come to their detractors and their self projected enemies....

lol....

[Jnana]

But why discuss your own abilities or experiences like this in a public radio interview, even it were indeed true? Is the Tibetan Lama tendency towards extreme humility really just a cultural thing, or is there a good reason for it?

Yeah, I think there's good reason for not discussing such things publicly. I have no idea of Ray's motivation. But even if the experiences are valid, it really doesn't help anyone to openly make such claims. What is needed at this point in time is Western teachers who are not controversial.

All the best,

Geoff

[Adamantine]

But why discuss your own abilities or experiences like this in a public radio interview, even it were indeed true? Is the Tibetan Lama tendency towards extreme humility really just a cultural thing, or is there a good reason for it?

Yeah, I think there's good reason for not discussing such things publicly. I have no idea of Ray's motivation. But even if the experiences are valid, it really doesn't help anyone to openly make such claims. What is needed at this point in time is Western teachers who are not controversial.

All the best,

Geoff

Yeah.. I think the non-controversial ones are out there but they're generally not promoting themselves so much and remain more under-the-radar. There's people that simply study a bit and do a minimum of practice and feel like they have a lot to teach. There's the people that do a 3-year retreat, or even just 1 year, and begin using the title Lama for themselves right away, expecting great respect. Then there's another type that may do multiple 3-year retreats and still avoid any special title or treatment, and instead of looking for it they shy away from any kind of teaching role unless their Guru commands them to. .

I pray that all sentient beings with pure motivation, when they seek for it, are able to find pure Lamas of unstained lineage and have their minds quenched with the true Dharma.

Sarwa Mangalam!

[Adamantine]

That all said, as far as R.Ray is concerned, I suppose we'll just have to be patient and see how he follows up with this discarding reincarnation business -- and how this discovering-protectors type activity plays out. I was actually excited to learn more about him since he did seem like a dynamic western Dharma teacher.. and then I heard that interview and I avoided seeing him speak when he came to my area because it raised so many questions.

[Adamantine]

I just happened upon this article from 2009 about the difficult changes the Shambhala community's been going through since the passing of their Maha Guru by Waylon Lewis of Elephant. http://www.elephantjournal.com/2009/03/ ... n-article/
In it, he asks:

"Why does the Sakyong emphasize a more literal understanding than did his father of the Buddha realms, and of reincarnation as essential to the proper Buddhist view?"

Are there any old students of Trungpa Rinpoche around that can clarify what non-literal understanding of reincarnation he may have been teaching? This could explain something about Ray's approach to the issue. Though in my readings of Trungpa I've not come across anything contradicting a literal interpretation of reincarnation.

[Mr. G]

But why discuss your own abilities or experiences like this in a public radio interview, even it were indeed true? Is the Tibetan Lama tendency towards extreme humility really just a cultural thing, or is there a good reason for it?

Yeah, I think there's good reason for not discussing such things publicly. I have no idea of Ray's motivation. But even if the experiences are valid, it really doesn't help anyone to openly make such claims. What is needed at this point in time is Western teachers who are not controversial.

All the best,

Geoff

[tobes]

thats what i gleemed from this blurb that is more than likely taken out of context of Malcolm's whole Buddhist View...

Actually yes, completely out of context.

the fact the attack came from esangha is no surprise as well...that place was a political quagmire at times...and modded with sometimes unwavering "Bias."....lol......

Yes, bias against the adharmic.

i'm just saying what is inside me head and what pops up.....lol....sorry if it steps on toes....lol....

one really has to be careful when deciding what is Dharma,a and what is Adharmic......

I mean clearly the piece in question is just being used out of context....but then again if you want to be anal....he did say this so therefore hang the man.....


i loathe when people get together...have a discussion and turns into people speaking like their are in a legal court....

you lose so much.....and condemn so little.....

I like this: what is dharmic and what is adharmic? Who get's to decide?

[Mr. G]

I like this: what is dharmic and what is adharmic? Who get's to decide?

tobes,

May I ask how you define what is dharmic and adharmic?

[Chaz]

I like this: what is dharmic and what is adharmic? Who get's to decide?

There are some people who, in their own estimation, get to make that distinction.

Lucky Them

Personally, I default to Sengstau:

The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and undisguised. Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.

If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind.

[Chaz]

That all said, as far as R.Ray is concerned, I suppose we'll just have to be patient and see how he follows up with this discarding reincarnation business -- and how this discovering-protectors type activity plays out. I was actually excited to learn more about him since he did seem like a dynamic western Dharma teacher.. and then I heard that interview and I avoided seeing him speak when he came to my area because it raised so many questions.

That was foolish.

[Jikan]

That's interesting, in the interview I recall him saying something more along the lines of it being a mountain retreat protector, and in the context it seemed like it was a local protector, -a new one dependent on that place. I don't believe he was using a name like in the paragraph above, which implies it is the energy of an already known protector. Does anyone know about the history of a protector called Ritro Gonpo? Is it known to be an emanation of Vajrakilaya outside of this website? And have other high Lamas confirmed this entity/energy is indeed the same? The only problem I can see about this, if this is indeed a known protector, is Ray advertising that he has the ability- the special vision, to recognize such things. This seems a bit like claiming a level of realization. And then there is the question of he really is capable of this, if this is the same entity etc. This wouldn't be an issue of claiming to be a terton-- claiming special abilities and claiming terma discovery are different things. There is no sense of any terma revelation in anything he has said so far.

Thanks for this.

The reason I used the word "terton" in this context was because I assumed (perhaps unfairly) that if Ritro Gonpo is understood as an emanation of Vajrakilaya, then there must be a sadhana behind it... and that would come from where except the pure vision of a finder of treasures.

Looking forward to finding out the facts about all this.

[Mr. G]

That all said, as far as R.Ray is concerned, I suppose we'll just have to be patient and see how he follows up with this discarding reincarnation business -- and how this discovering-protectors type activity plays out. I was actually excited to learn more about him since he did seem like a dynamic western Dharma teacher.. and then I heard that interview and I avoided seeing him speak when he came to my area because it raised so many questions.

That was foolish.

How so?