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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:46 am 
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Thrasymachus wrote:
That is like saying abolitionists should have compassion for the feelings of slave owners -- by supporting slavery. Or that people in the Third World who are against imperialism, who don't have access to clean drinking water should have compassion for the possibly offended fat Americans who want to drive SUVs, eat meat, dairy or eggs every meal of everyday and otherwise live a ridiculously lavish lifestyle because of said imperialism -- since these slovenly people believe the American military is some global social welfare provider, and thus the more valid perspective of the colonized could offend them.

You cannot equate the lives of animals, to the taste preferences of certain humans, unless you have a sick worldview. Also, imho, vegetarians cannot really speak out for animals, either, sorry.


Education time:

You see things as black an white, right and wrong. You presume that those who have power over you see things as black an white, right and wrong. You then think that their cut of justice is imbalanced from your own. That's to say; you project your own right and wrongness onto "them".

That would be incorrect. Those who have power over you have already transcended the black an white polarisation of right and wrong which you yourself are afflicted by. In time you'll become like them, as much as that that thought now fills you with horror, and you'll come to understand right and wrong as subjective.

In time, when you have more life experience, you'll come to realise the laws which govern "what goes down" as being universal laws and you won't need to argue.

Until that time we all welcome your heart-felt sincerity in speaking out for what you believe is right, and wrong, in this world.

My only advice, to you, is to not cause anyone too much pain or guilt as you yourself express your own definition of what you believe is right, and wrong, in this world.

This world is energy. Morality is the affair of man. But, man is the affair of energy. However, morality is not the affair of energy. The law which governs energy is not morality, but love. Love is very mysterious to the ego. There is a great gulf between Love and Morality... The narcissism of Man.

Best wishes.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:12 am 
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Thrasymachus wrote:
That is like saying abolitionists should have compassion for the feelings of slave owners -- by supporting slavery. Or that people in the Third World who are against imperialism, who don't have access to clean drinking water should have compassion for the possibly offended fat Americans who want to drive SUVs, eat meat, dairy or eggs every meal of everyday and otherwise live a ridiculously lavish lifestyle because of said imperialism -- since these slovenly people believe the American military is some global social welfare provider, and thus the more valid perspective of the colonized could offend them.

You cannot equate the lives of animals, to the taste preferences of certain humans, unless you have a sick worldview. Also, imho, vegetarians cannot really speak out for animals, either, sorry.



Yes, from a Buddhist standpoint one should cultivate compassion for all these beings even if they commit unskillful acts.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:18 am 
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Many people operate in the light of 'ahimsa' do no harm. Its an ethical position that some will not compromise on this matter. There are many levels as some people love animals so much ...they cannot bear to see an injured puppy of bird but will go home and scoff a bowl of chicken soup.
In our area we have people who save baby Possums or Fruit bats and will stay up till all hours bottle feeding these vulnerable animals but will still not question eating meat.
Your own conscience must be the final judge of how you live your life....which is fluid because you can be omnivorous one day and change to strict vegetarianism the next without being in the least bit capricious. I believe working in a slaughterhouse could make you brutal or change you into a vegan overnight.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:57 am 
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Thrasymachus wrote:
the few Cantonese who will eat what they consider pets, but likely overall consume fewer animals, due to the wealth disparity between the two groups. It boggles the mind.


Vietnamese dog noodle soup is very warming in rainy season when your rice crop has already been eaten by rats... or would you prefer to die of hunger ?

Why don't you take a break from your narrow little world of America and see how the real world actually functions?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:29 am 
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Thrasymachus wrote:
@yan kong:
It is not what you pretend to stand for in life, but what you stand for that matters. Compassion isn't using the feelings of the oppressors of the world as an excuse to do nothing to help the really oppressed. What you are doing is making cheap tautologies to confuse the simplest of matters, due to a lack of compassion and callousness.

Buddhism has alot of shangri-la bs. For example I was fooled by the image of Bhutan as the vanguard of gross national happiness. Then I learned that wife beating is rampant, but the country is so internationally isolated, the women there don't know it is considered wrong in other countries. And the Buddhist monasteries have massive scandals with "thigh sex". See:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/2 ... 76401.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/rel ... 0_ST_N.htm
Theory and public relations of the happiest nation on earth, versus actual lived reality. Claims versus facts. Facts matter more, lived reality matters more. Reality and not shangri-la, bs please. Siding with oppression is not compassion. It is very clear cut, you cannot equate the feelings of murderers about their act over the actual life of the victim and the sanctity of their life.

Feelings and luxury preferences vs countless actual lives in the balance. Gee, I wonder why so many self proclaimed buddhists pretend it is so complicated, when it is not


I think you misunderstood my original post, perhaps that is my fault. I wasn't referring to hurting to feelings of meat eaters, it does not seem to me that many of the meat eaters on this forum have been offended by this thread. Rather I was referring to the idea that one can cultivate great feelings of empathy and compassion for animals yet they seem to emit very little compassion for humanity which they choose to see as "other" and "the oppressors".

I never said we should do nothing for the oppressed but if we restrict the study of what is being done to this forum it doesn't seem like name calling and aggression is getting much results either.

By the way, I am aware of the dubious things that go on in Buddhist communities around the world but my faith in the triple jewels is mature enough not to be swayed by them and I am not so cynical about the world to believe their are no good Buddhist communities.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:38 am 
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This thread is saddening. If you follow a branch of Buddhism where vegetarianism is advocated be a vegetarian. If you follow a branch of Buddhism where the eating of meat is permitted or even encouraged, then eat meat. Focusing on what others are doing rather than simply on your own practice is not helpful to anyone.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:06 am 
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Vajraprajnakhadga wrote:
This thread is saddening. If you follow a branch of Buddhism where vegetarianism is advocated be a vegetarian. If you follow a branch of Buddhism where the eating of meat is permitted or even encouraged, then eat meat. Focusing on what others are doing rather than simply on your own practice is not helpful to anyone.



Spot on.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Vajraprajnakhadga wrote:
If you follow a branch of Buddhism where vegetarianism is advocated be a vegetarian. If you follow a branch of Buddhism where the eating of meat is permitted or even encouraged, then eat meat.


I'm afraid I can't agree with this. (Though I do agree that this thread is saddening.) You're treating vegetarianism as if it were a matter of social convention. Like the question which side of the road to drive on. But it is really an ethical question and there is the possibility that traditions have deteriorated. Besides everybody is free to choose which tradition to follow and everybody has the duty to check out the teacher before becoming his student, which includes checking out if the teacher has a convincing position as to eating meat or not. :shrug:

But I do agree with the gist of your post that we should focus on our own practice and refrain from personal attacks.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:35 pm 
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Thrasymachus wrote:
Yang kong: 3 posts so far. In his first he claimed to be vegetarian BUT was dismayed by the attitude of vegetarians lacking compassion. Two more follow up posts of the same. I am pretty sure by how he acts, constantly defending meat eating, that he is not what he claims. Now he claims calling oppressors, oppressors is lacking compassion... I am pretty sure hiding social reality as it actually exists and operates and dismissing the murder of tens billions of animals for little good reason besides luxury, taste biases and custom is what is really lacking compassion. Calling oppressors, oppressors, is showing compassion where it needs to be shown.

Yang kong, have you thought of following the American military around the world for their wars of aggressions to help show them compassion? If there is a job doing that, I think you would be good at that. Make sure to also lecture the locals on how not to offend the GI Joes...


I am a vegetarian, just one that may not that agrees with your methods. I've not met a lot of meat eaters who have said "Oh you're right, I am an oppressor. Your compassion has shown me the way". People become vegetarians if they believe it is an ethically sound practice and they tend to listen better if one does not verbally attack them first. Also, your last sentence leads me to believe you either haven't understood something in my posts as I said my concern was not about whether anyone is offended or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:57 pm 
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Converts are always more zealous than people brought up doing something.
Vegetarianism is what we have for our dinner.
Same as eating meat is.
Nobody's any better or worse than anyone else by reason of what they eat for dinner.
The idea of eating meat turns me over as I was raised not eating meat simply because my parents and one set of grandparents were veggie.
Back in the day that was seen as a 'bit eccentric' but tolerated.
Nowadays it's widely accepted.
No biggie either way.
We all eat what we like to eat and leave alone what we don't.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:39 pm 
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I'm going to have to said with ReasonandRhyme here. Vegetarianism is not simply what one eats but a choice based on ethics (for some vegetarians at least).

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Thrasymachus wrote:

You are good for what you do in real life, not what you think in the abstract or wish for. If you meditate and think enlightened thoughts during that time, but you are a murderer, you are a murderer. If you don't meditate and don't murder, obviously you are comparatively better. So no, you obviously cannot make up the nonsense you do about the choices in life someone makes or doesn't make doesn't matter because it is all consumer choice according to your repulsive worldview.


Maybe you yourself feel some repulsion in yourself about being a consumer. I think that's quite noble. Like Mahatma Gandhi said "be the change you want to see in the world". However He also advocated, and led British-ruled India to freedom, by means of nonviolent civil disobedience.

Do your really believe that your posts are something other than an outlet which allows you to transfer some of the guilt-you-feel-for-living-a-consumer-lifestyle onto others?

You see things as black an white, right and wrong. You have contested this and virtually slandered me in previous posts (although you know nothing about my appurtenances).

You call out others as "murderers", you condemn others because they, perhaps, don't have the same black an white definition of right and wrong as you yourself suffer from.

Good luck taking your next shower. I hope you'll be able to think "enlightened thoughts" when scrubbing all those millions of living bacterial phyla off from your body. :rolling:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:49 pm 
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Topic locked for review.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:14 pm 
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conversation split from here

Vajrasvapna wrote:
I said for most humans, this is the opinion of some nutritionist and also mine, I believe that most people should eat meat at least twice a month.

For what reasons do you think most people should eat meat at least twice a month? How do you determine who fits into that "most people" category?

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 Post subject: Eating meat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:46 am 
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Hi there,

this is my first post. I hope my English is good enough to talk to you in this discussion forum :-)

I am unsure if it is not consequential to eat vegan if you try to follow Buddhas teaching? On the one hand you should not harm creatures. On the other hand eats even the Dalai Lama sausages. In the Asian kitchen you eat chicken and many people in Asia are Buddhists. If you are not a monk is it "mean" to eat meat?

kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: Eating meat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:06 am 
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Well, good luck in reading this which is a mega & multifaceted thread discussion on your topic.
Then, if you still have time, you can try the sister site's version of this mega long thread as well here

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 Post subject: Re: Eating meat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:13 am 
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It is not necessary to keep a strict vegan diet to practice Buddhism well.

It is necessary to reflect carefully on one's intentions and actions--no matter what you eat.

Some traditions do practice vegetarianism. Others do not. They have their reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Eating meat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:27 am 
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Oh I am sorry to post that question without searching for old discussions. That was stupid. Just want to start something to get in to it. But I guess this was to quick ;-)

@ Jikan
Thank you so much much for your reply. Arte there any traditions which eat meat without exception?


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 Post subject: Re: Eating meat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:11 pm 
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Einsicht wrote:
Oh I am sorry to post that question without searching for old discussions. That was stupid. Just want to start something to get in to it. But I guess this was to quick ;-)

@ Jikan
Thank you so much much for your reply. Arte there any traditions which eat meat without exception?


Most Tibetans (and hence Tibetan Buddhists) eat meat, but with a certain intention. Some of them advocate for a vegetarian diet, though.

For Japanese Buddhists, who are very likely to eat meat and fish regularly, occasional periods of vegetarian diet are practiced. For instance, when we train at our home temple, the food is strictly vegetarian. After training, though, the menu is wide-open.

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 Post subject: Re: Eating meat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:20 pm 
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I think, a vegan lifestyle is healthy for many people - but it will not prevent various kinds of harm, that is done to countless beings.
One should try to avoid damage to the beings - that is true. But noone can avoid it 100%. The plasic-shoes (instead of leather shoes) poison the environment too and kill other beings in this way...

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