the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:53 am

maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:51 am

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu said that it doesnt really matter since when you example grow potato or rice, you automatically kill hundreds if not thousands of small sentient beings.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:15 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:Chogyal Namkhai Norbu said that it doesnt really matter since when you example grow potato or rice, you automatically kill hundreds if not thousands of small sentient beings.


he also constantly says how karma begins with intent, and always gives as an example accidentally stepping on an insect without even realizing it, and feeling sorry afterwards. Intent to kill? 0

killing an animal deliberately in order to eat it (or letting the butcher do it for you)? Intent to kill? +1
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:36 pm

no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:51 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.


unless you are dumpster diving you are paying someone else to kill, which amounts to the same thing.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:09 pm

not exactly like that, and they would kill even if i wouldnt buy. it happens unrelated to me. i acknowledge that i am not helping in stopping to kill animals for meat and with my actions i am actually supporting it. but one person in so many doesnt make a difference.

and not having intent to kill even though you eat meat and having the intent to kill and meating eat are different even though i buy meat, if i buy meat it doesn't = intent to kill.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:15 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.


Life feeds on life, intentionally or not.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:17 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:Chogyal Namkhai Norbu said that it doesnt really matter since when you example grow potato or rice, you automatically kill hundreds if not thousands of small sentient beings.


he also constantly says how karma begins with intent, and always gives as an example accidentally stepping on an insect without even realizing it, and feeling sorry afterwards. Intent to kill? 0

killing an animal deliberately in order to eat it (or letting the butcher do it for you)? Intent to kill? +1


and your logic goes wrong here that letting the butcher do it for you. the buyer probly in most cases dont even think about killing an animal, let alone to actually have an intent to kill it.

and the killing happens, we cant change it.

and it happens in growing vegetarian food, example the stuff that you buy from stores there are pesticides in those plants and fruits and potatoes and carrots and whatnot, and they use pesticide with the intent to kill the insects that could do harm to the crop. with the intent to eradicate those little bastards who do harm to our crop. and vegetarians buy that, but vegetarians dont have the intent to kill when they buy that.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.


Life feeds on life, intentionally or not.

M


so you're claiming that intent is irrelevant when it comes to karma?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:49 pm

Following some of this logic, then Shakyamuni Buddha would be equally guilty by begging food which had been killed by someone else, that is a rough moral equivalent to the modern buying of meat at a supermarket.

Also has been mentioned a bunch, vegan and vegetarian diets are more viable for those in the first world, who already live off the ill-gotten fruits of a big chunk of the rest of the world, so if you're looking for things we contribute to indirectly to be morally outraged at, IMO meat eating is just a drop in the bucket.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:02 pm

A good test of a formulation (see Immanuel Kant's first law) is to test if it were universal and applied to everyone. What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses? So at least in my opinion, a vegetarian diet is at least an ideal form since no one would be able to eat meat if everyone were Buddhist.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:15 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.


Life feeds on life, intentionally or not.

M


so you're claiming that intent is irrelevant when it comes to karma?


No, I am observing that all living beings feed on other living beings. I will add that the distinction between sentient and non-sentient life is artificial and anachronistic.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:18 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses?


We have already performed this experiment in Tibet, Thailand, etc. The answer is that Buddhists would man the abattoirs and come up with rites of karmic expiation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
so you're claiming that intent is irrelevant when it comes to karma?


No, I am observing that all living beings feed on other living beings. I will add that the distinction between sentient and non-sentient life is artificial and anachronistic.

M


thats a non-sequitur as a response to the question of intent and karma.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Pero » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:23 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses?


We have already performed this experiment in Tibet, Thailand, etc. The answer is that Buddhists would man the abattoirs and come up with rites of karmic expiation.


If you justify everything with doing whatever you want knowing you will just ask for forgiveness, be forgiven or receive karmic expiation, what is that to stop anything from murder of a human to anything?

So what if everyone were Buddhist and really practiced the First Precept?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:30 pm

Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.


no wonder this thread is 125 pages long :rolling:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:31 pm

Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.


all classical expositions of karma include the case of ordering someone else to kill for you for the very reason that people of low intelligence will actually think that it excuses them from culpability.

if you actually think that saying "i would never kill an animal to eat it but Im OK with paying someone else to kill it so I can eat it" makes sense, then I really don't know what else to say to you.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:32 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses?


We have already performed this experiment in Tibet, Thailand, etc. The answer is that Buddhists would man the abattoirs and come up with rites of karmic expiation.


If you justify everything with doing whatever you want knowing you will just ask for forgiveness, be forgiven or receive karmic expiation, what is that to stop anything from murder of a human to anything?

So what if everyone were Buddhist and really practiced the First Precept?



we would probly stop eating and either achieve liberation and in both cases go extinct since killing happens even when growing vegetables.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:33 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.


all classical expositions of karma include the case of ordering someone else to kill for you for the very reason that people of low intelligence will actually think that it excuses them from culpability.

if you actually think that saying "i would never kill an animal to eat it but Im OK with paying someone else to kill it so I can eat it" makes sense, then I really don't know what else to say to you.


if you look at it clearly, the big corporations order the animals to be killed to make money out of it and give people meet.

no regular customer is actually ordering animals to be killed. that is done by corporations.
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