the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:31 pm

Nemo wrote:This was still a useful thread. I read one of Marc Sisson's books. It had a few good tips. I keep wishing there was a way I could be vegetarian and healthy. Evolutionary biology makes that very unlikely. Where my ancestors are from it was likely 85% of calories came from animals. Agriculture was introduced very recently and their has been no time to adapt. On an island near where my grandfather is from 1 in 250 will literally die without meat as they cannot synthesize carnitine. As I age it gets harder to go without meat and most grains make me somewhat ill.

A few have adapted to agriculture, probably most have not. A very few may no longer be adapted to either as unused genes are often lost. I am amused at how Thras thinks all people are exactly like him in their dietary needs. I wish more research went into finding the secret sauce of making cavemen like me into healthy vegetarians.


You and me, both. I have learned to make peace with the fact that the Buddha himself ate meat. Sure, he apparently once laid down in front of a starving tiger mom and fed her his own blood, too... but meat as a dietary necessity is one particular life circumstance that really caused me to look at myself and my judgements and to reevaluate this world and my place in it. This is samsara and as a human being I have certain limitations and am in every way posed with finding the lesser of two evils option. When I finally resorted to eating meat for my own health, I was extremely bummed about it and it was at this point that I realized I was on kind of a high horse about not eating meat (as if I was better than Buddha himself by not eating meat?) Big deal, I didn't eat meat. Buddha ate meat and was better than me in every possible way, while I was a bitchy little jerk taking some sort of pride or comfort in the fact that at least I didn't eat meat, which in reality was not all too hard since I don't even really like meat, anyway! So, not much of a sacrifice or even much of a compassionate act.

However, you're right. It is very difficult to maintain health on a vegetarian diet. There is a lot of hype about vegan and vegetarian diets lately and so of course everyone is becoming convinced it is the best choice, but the hype is based on extremely flawed data.

This is a very worthwhile watch for anyone, as Denise Minger explains some of the flawed data:


I still don't encourage people to eat meat and I have been trying to find the perfect balance of minimum meat requirements for my own body.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:15 am

I remember reading a polemic from some Theraveda person on vegetarianism where they made the best comment i've seen about vegetarianism in a Buddhist context, at least it was pretty convincing to me.. basically it came down to this:

If one really wanted to focus on eating as "The Buddha would've wanted it", then one would simply focus on eating only what was needed, and not very much. Something that almost no one I know does (more power to you if you do), and something which would, in a real way, be more effective than any particular diet in terms of limiting one's negative interactions with the world. Specialized diets like veganism are only even viable in the developed world where our ridiculous overabundance makes them doable. Seen from that point of view, "non-harming" diets could be seen as actually intimately connected to being on "the top of the heap" in terms of living somewhere that drains such in insane variety of the worlds resources that your diet is now possible.

Anyway, as it's been mentioned, if you're really concerned with indirect effects of your lifestyle..we westerners have a whole host of stuff to look at well beyond diet that is probably a better starting place.

As to the diet stuff, man the internet cracks me up. Never thought i'd see someone trying to claim that carbs aren't bad for diabetics..that's a new one, and utterly, completely laughable if you know any diabetics, especially type 1's.

Such an insular environment where one can link spam, talk a bunch of nonsense, then call it 'researching' (aka dicking around on the web to reinforce one's own biases) and accuse everyone else of being off base for expressing rational views. Yay.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:03 am

Nemo wrote:... Where my ancestors are from it was likely 85% of calories came from animals. ... As I age it gets harder to go without meat and most grains make me somewhat ill.


Oh man, you anecdoctal annie meat addicts are so pathetic and never stop. Since you guys love anecdotes: I know many drug addicts. One of my addict friends will from time to call at night with a desperate tone in his voice and ask for $20, which I know is for cocaine. When I tell him no, he starts this spiel about how it is just $20, he will pay me back, then when I persist he tries to guilt. Most people can do drugs and stop them, but only people with addicted personalities become addicts, the drugs are not addictive in and of themselves. When you listen to addicts talk they act like what makes them actually sicker, is what actually makes them feel good and look forward to life and that when they stop they become sick(unless they have been clean for quite a while). You can find many anecdotal annies that argue drugs make them feel good and whine that they get sick when they stop using(the drugs that actually make them sick, not the abstinence from them).

Now in the realm of serious adults, there is actual research. Earlier in this thread we saw how a member didn't know the difference between calorie restriction and "lower-carb" or "low-carb" and imputed his lowered blood glucose was due to carb restriction, when it is well known that losing weight for overweight people improves almost all biomarkers including blood glucose. (Which is funny as, Nemo, deludely, of course with no sound sources as usual, tried to argue being overweight and fat made you more healthy and physically fit...) Now in real life, in Scandinavia where Nemo has alluded his family was from, external exigencies have actually forced those populations to lower their meat consumption drastically:
Singh, et. al wrote:American Journal of Clinical Nutrition: Does low meat consumption increase life expectancy in humans?

... During World Wars I and II, wartime food restrictions that virtually eliminated meat consumption in Scandinavian countries were followed by a decline in the mortality rate (by ≈2 deaths/1000) that returned to prewar levels after the restriction was lifted (7–12). ...

7.↵ Hindhede M. The effect of food restriction during war on mortality in Copenhagen. JAMA 1920;76:381–2.

8. Friderica LS. Nutritional investigations in Denmark during the War, 1939–1945. Proc Nutr Soc 1947;5:255–9.

9. Tikka J. Conditions and research into human nutrition in Finland during the war years. Proc Nutr Soc 1947;5:260–3.

10. Hansen OG. Food conditions in Norway during the war, 1939–1945. Proc Nutr Soc 1947;5:263–70.

11. Bang HO, Dyerberg J. Personal reflections on the incidence of ischemic heart disease in Oslo during the Second World War. Acta Med Scand 1981;210:245–8. Medline

12. ↵ Abramson E. Nutrition and nutritional research in Sweden in the years of the war, 1939–1945. Proc Nutr Soc 1947;5:271–6.



On the healthy longevity blog there is a post detailing how with the decrease of animal based foods, mortality decreased in Norway:
Image
"Figure 1. Mortality from circulatory disease, correlated for age; consumption of fat in form of butter, milk, cheese and eggs, Norway 1938-48"

This is what happens when you funny anecdotal annies open your mouths: you spout nonsense about ancestors, genetic inheritance/adaptation, how different you are, of course with no sources. But you look at serious sources about these European long lost relatives you find that when those people actually were forced by wartime rationing and/or German requisitioning to decrease the amount of animal based foods they ate, their health and longevity actually improved. So contrary to your anecdotal whining about unique adaptations to meat consumption that you have(of course with no source, why would the Anecdotal Nancy club do that?), there is no such thing.

@Flat Earth society of nutrition on dharmawheel:
How come not a single one of you has a profile picture of yourselves uploaded? Is it because you guys give every indication of not being close to a healthy body weight(and thus healthy in general) from trying six diets(and wanting to jump to the Thrive diet next, which someone at a healthy body mass would not have to do...), and that one of you was so desperate to lose weight but stay addicted to meat that you have tried being in such a state of ketosis from carbohydrate starvation that your urine smelled like "nail polish"...?!

This Paleo caveman nonsense has nothing to do with veganism, nor does it have anything to do with the finding of nutritional research, anthropology about what primitive or tribal societies actually ate, nor the findings of archaeologists about what our Paleo ancestors actually ate. It is just a made up fictional fad by meat addicts for meat addicts. There is no such such thing as low-carb veganism as I have stated, stop adding confusion just because you guys are so addicted to the taste and habit of eating meat you need to invent fake illnesses that start when you don't eat meat, but which you cannot prove(of course naturally, since you guys hate sources so much because it would stop your nonsense ability to make anything up). Try to grow up and move beyond bro-science, and if you don't want to there are actual Paleo forums where you can express your hate for rigorous proof. What you guys are advocating is dangerous, and that is why you want to always go back to your self constructed fantasy world of anecdotes.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:40 am

Do you understand that correlation does not equal causation, because your last few posts strongly suggest that you actually think they are the same thing.

The correlation in the Norway graph is interesting (but not proof of causation). The death rate and fat consumption show range variations of 0.06% and 0.07% respectively, which is not significant (in the statistical sense of the word) even if the graph looks excitingly varied.

Earlier in this thread we saw how a member didn't know the difference between calorie restriction and "lower-carb" or "low-carb" and imputed his lowered blood glucose was due to carb restriction, when it is well known that losing weight for overweight people improves almost all biomarkers including blood glucose.


That was me - please have the common decency to name names if you want to call people out, cowardly not to - and I made the further statement that my calorie restriction occured becuase I cut out excess carbs. This is actually a fact - not 'imputed', 'alleged', 'alluded' or imagined. Please note the first sentence in this post about correlation because it applies fully here and is the reason why I believe you have little to no understanding of either research methodology or statistical interpretation.And it should be further noted that I was not strictly speaking overweight before I started the diet (bearing in mind that there is virtually no consensus on ideal weights and there is no sensible way to generalise this).

Thrasymachus, you also seem to be labouring under the delusion that 'anecdotal' means 'not true'.

Two questions for you (though I doubt you will address either directly)

1. What exactly are your formal qualifications, if any? (particularly in relation to the sciences)
2. Are you really going to spend your entire life wallowing in such bile?
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:27 am

Qing Tian wrote:And it should be further noted that I was not strictly speaking overweight before I started the diet (bearing in mind that there is virtually no consensus on ideal weights and there is no sensible way to generalise this).


Oh, man, you anecdotal nancies are too funny!
:crazy:

In this post you mentioned you went from "110kg (243lb for our metrically challenged transatlantic friends) to 83kg (183lb) a loss of 27kg (60lb)."

Generally people obsessed with losing weight, always talking about it, searching for the next fad diet, etc. are self confessed as overweight. You don't think you should lose weight, unless you think you are overweight. Now, since you self confessed you lost 60 lb., that is, you felt you could have stood to have lost that weight compared your previous weight, yes, you were likely strictly speaking overweight and likely even obese, unless you are pro basketball player tall.

It is very funny how much you loved anecdotes until you started with interacting with me, now you act like you are a nutritional scientist demanding proof. Image But I already gave so much proof and you guys try to whine us back to anecdotes: "because everyone is so different". Like the people I know who are healthier sniffing heroin than not sniffing it.(I made that up, just you like guys. HA!) I have no deep expertise in this field, but unlike the flat earth society you feel yourself a part of, in regards to human nutrition, I actually stick to consulting the experts like T. Colin Campbell, a leading nutritional biochemist with many peer reviewed papers, not Denise Minger an English major, freelance writer and lame blogger who thinks she can debunk his whole highly qualified multi-national team behind the China–Cornell–Oxford Project(yes Paleo flat earthers, Colin Campbell did not conduct the whole multi decade "China study" himself, it was a collaboration of hundreds of people) and Dr. McDougall a medical professional who has supervised people getting off their medications with a starch based, majority carb diet, not bro-scientist, likely testosterone abuser, Mark Sisson, who has no qualifications and touts email testimonals(when it is known that even the unhealthy paleo diet will improve biomarkers shortly during the period the poor duped saps will lose weight before gaining it back)! I will stick to ignoring whiny overweight Westerners and their anecdotes and focus on how before the advent of the automobile and the type of subsidies for animal agriculture seen in the West, most people were not overweight and constantly whining that they were victims of genetics that made them fat out of nowhere and there is nothing they can do it as poor victimized souls. Most importantly, I know that when you are not actually lowering your percentage of carbs consumed vis a vis fats and/or protein(the other macro-nutrients) it is not "lowered carb" and that is likely calorie restriction.

Have a good day, flat earthers of human nutrition. It takes time to give serious responses, instead of making up one's own personal reality, you see. I am not posting to make a psychological impression of anecdotes with no backing or "look at bodybuilders", "look at this celebrity Drew Carey", look at this bro-scientist, look at this English major blogger who thinks she can debunk the majority opinion in nutrition research about the benefits of a plant based diet, like you lot are.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:14 am

I have no deep expertise in this field, but unlike the flat earth society you feel yourself a part of, in regards to human nutrition, I actually stick to consulting the experts like T. Colin Campbell...


I suspected as much. Cherry-picking among data as a part of confirmation bias is a very common trait, especially among people who lack formal scientific education, and is particularly rife when there is little consensus within the subject area among the actual experts.

You don't think you should lose weight, unless you think you are overweight.


This a class piece. One is only overweight if one thinks one is overweight? :rolling:
I would urge people to ignore your statement as it is positively dangerous and highly irresponsible.

By the way, I wasn't obsessed with losing weight. I considered it a healthy move (and in accordance with current thinking on managing diabetes - no doubt you will want to argue with that too), so I did it. I also did not jump on the fad-diet bandwagon. I examined what I was eating and reduced what I felt was superfluous - which just happened to be a whole bunch of excess carb based foodstuffs. This was not a recognised 'named' diet.

I am not making this stuff up, you know, it actually happened EXACTLY as I reported it. Statistically insignificant I know, but then I'm not making sweeping claims.

While I don't doubt your sincerity, albeit infused with the raging desire to find fault everywhere, you really have no idea how to interpret specialist information.

What I would suggest that you do is go away and conduct an independent systematic review. You might need to get some training first though because, and you may/may not be aware of this, doing such a review does not mean simply reading some articles and forming your own opinion, and nor does it mean accepting the conclusions of the authors as correct.

Yeah, never going to happen is it?
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:47 am

I suggest you become a comedian somewhere else, not here, and not with me. I am a serious person, I don't spend the time on the escapism you lot have. Nutrition is a serious subject, one of the most serious, it is what you can do to improve your health the most along with exercise, outside of nutritional flat earth society myths you guys want to uphold where everyone is a victim of viscous genetics and "everyone is so different," and so thus vague reports from ill-disciplined food addicts, rule the day. The fact that the average person is so ignorant on such subjects says enough of where their priorities are. When you say you lost 60 lbs, which is a huge amount, you implied you were likely obese, most likely overweight, yet using your amazingly anecdotal approach in just your last post we were back to: "I was not strictly speaking overweight before I started the diet". I don't know how someone can stand to lose so much weight without being overweight... But using your amazing anecdotal approach, if you didn't reveal actual data on your weight and diet in your post I cited and linked to about your actual starting weight before you diet and your current weight a while ago, you could have gotten away with your later statement... I mean how much more does it take for you guys to understand you cannot ignore decades of evidence by using anecdotes? If no one can check, someone can claim anything. So if your posts in this thread were the only thing we could have consulted, no one could have debunked your obviously false claims.

Obviously your ego cannot handle this and now you want to pretend you don't care about anecdotes and that I should become a researcher or otherwise credentialed! I am not saying I want to become a nutritional researcher, a clinician, a dietician, etc., or that anyone has to. You didn't have a problem to correlate your study of one(thus useless) with your previous claim lowering carbs(which you didn't do, that is not what the term means, it means substituting more protein and fats for carbs), lowered your blood glucose(when I presented a study that shows high-carb lowers blood glucose and then gave two more studies, one showing that weight loss reduces diabetes incidence and that it also lowers fasting blood glucose). Certainly you don't have problem when people cite Denise Minger, who is just a blogger, but who thinks she can debunk Richard Peto, a medical statistician at Oxford and his work on the China–Cornell–Oxford Project... Image

All I see in this thread is alot of people trying to create lame psychological impressions with unverifiable, self-created anecdote fantasies, but who give away their ignorance by thinking that as people age they should become overweight(Reality: only those societies spoiled by privilege can consume enough surplus refined plant and animal food calories to become in their majority overweight, only those who can use the unlocked potential of gas, coal or natural gas consistently to avoid their own locomotion or effort), or by confusing calorie restriction with lowering a macro-nutrient at the expense of others, or the constant lame references to bodybuilders, Drew Carey, etc.

Face it, one person using facts is getting the better of half a dozen with their constructed dungeons and dragons like fantasies about human nutrition.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Nemo » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:42 am

The interesting thing about genetics is it is "anecdotal". There is also a genetic trait nearby that makes some Swedes immune to HIV. Their T cells are so different the virus cannot infect them. Some Italians are immune to arterial sclerosis. In some countries 85% of people cannot digest milk. The food you thrive on is a matter of evolution. I may no longer need my pale skin or pigmentless eyes to create vitamin d in the winter but that does not change my genetic predisposition to burn like a vampire in the equatorial sun. As a vegetarian I wasted away to 135 pounds. Eating a diet similar to what anthropologists and archaeologists have pieced together I am 200 pounds with abs in my mid 40's. I tried being vegetarian many times. The longest was for 4 years. By the end I looked like a cancer patient. My Lama actually made me eat meat. Carnitine let me drop my meat consumption dramatically, but there is still something else missing. I would like to find out what essential macro or micronutrients my body needs so I can have both health and an ethical diet. Currently I must choose between the two.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:53 am

Edit: Slightly Ninja'd, this is directed at Thrasymachus

Define 'overweight', but before you do that you might want to consider 'fit for purpose'. The reason I bring this up is that technically speaking a rugby player can be 'fit for purpose' and yet 'overweight' by standard assumptions.

I lost a lot of weight, I do not deny this. In fact I am rather happy about it. Apart from my diabetes my 'fit for purpose' paradigm needed to change to suit different planned activities. Example - I wanted to run marathons but was previously into bodybuilding. Now you could, and probably will, argue that bodybuilders are all overweight (based on simple height to weight ratios, phenotypes and such, and thus ignoring the 'fit for purpose' issue). As a bodybuilder I could have run a marathon (with the right training) but I would not have been competitive.

So you see, when you don't have the actual facts of the case any assumption you make is highly likely to be wrong. And you are wrong in this case regarding my weight change.

Also, you can suggest whatever you like. You do not get to tell me what to do, what to post or where to post. If you don't like the situation you know what you can do (big hint - it's something you can do yourself).

I raised the issue of research methodology because I am in research (at a university) and so I am fully aware of the pitfalls and false trails that many well-meaning amateurs fall foul of through no fault of their own. You talk about 'majority of research(ers)' agreeing on this or that... well, I challenge you right now to produce a link (at the very least) to an actual document that unequivocally states that the majority of researchers in the field of human nutrition and related areas agree with what you have tried to pass off in this thread. In most areas of research there are competing views and theories. Often this does not mean anything quite so black and white as one side being wrong and the other right. If you had a more formal introduction to research methodology you would perhaps appreciate this a little better. Have you read any of the myriad scientific papers that offer other competing theories? And if you have, how did you - a self-confessed non-expert - dismiss them? I think this is a very important pair of questions to ask, and I do so here in all seriousness.

So if your posts in this thread were the only thing we could have consulted, no one could have debunked your obviously false claims.


You are a very insulting person. It's not big and it's not clever. Neither does it represent a balanced reasoning ability. My claims are not claims at all but a reporting of an actual event. My partner, work colleagues and friends were all witness to this event. It happened. This is not open to debate. To do so, from your position, is to call me a liar. Do you wish front up and say so publicly? If that is what you think I feel I have the right to know. If not then you should desist.

You are fixated on this 'higher carbs-lower BG levels' kick. You should try to read and understand what I have written. If you had taken a moment of your obvious intellect you would have noticed that I did not claim that carbs were linked with diabetes. I stated that I lost weight by cutting down on my carb intake (this is a fact) and did not replace them with anything else. I understand this can be seen as simply a calorie reduction, but I deliberately achieved that by targetting one food group - carbs. The fact that my BG levels normalised after this is interesting, and I have always been open to the possibility that it was the weight loss that has driven this and not the dietary change per se. However, even when I am agreeing with some of what you are saying you don't believe that I am agreeing. Fascinating and quite, quite depressing.

Frankly speaking, Thrasymachus (a telling nom de plume BTW), it is clear from the content of your posts (which are much like the Curate's Egg) that you are an exceptionally closed-minded person whose approach to these boards is highly divisive and destructive. You have some very interesting observations and clearly the desire to seek out the truth on such matters, however, while you could easily have been garnering followers, winning hearts and minds, alas you ended up merely turning stomachs.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:45 am

Nemo wrote:... Some Italians are immune to arterial sclerosis.


Oh man, you guys are so pathetic it is not funny. You mean the Italians of previous decades eating their traditional Mediterranean diet with low amounts of animal products, thus low amounts of dietary cholesterol? Well they are not eating the same diet, they eat alot more meat, milk and cheese and they have closed the gap with Western Europeans in terms of arterial blockages. I suggest you read more and make up stuff less. I come from these Mediterranean people, and I actually read and don't make stuff up.

Nemo wrote:In some countries 85% of people cannot digest milk.

Yes, that is true. But does anyone thrive on milk? No. The countries that consume the most milk like the USA and Finland have the most osteoporosis. Meat consumption is something that allows people to live in inhospitable areas like the high Tibetan plateau, Northern Canada, the Greenland ice-sheet, etc., where they wouldn't otherwise. But these populations are puny, and have ill-health, that is the trade-off. There is no one trying to promote a Tibetan, Mongolian or Inuit diet, except perhaps Paleo-eque hucksters.

Nemo wrote:Eating a diet similar to what anthropologists and archaeologists have pieced together I am 200 pounds with abs in my mid 40's. ...

Is this before or after you were so desperate to try Atkins style ketosis that your pissed smelled like nail polish in your own words? Sounds like total bs to me. On the one hand in one anecdoctal post, you were so desperate to lose weight, you resorted to that, but now to discredit vegetarianism you went from a 130 lb. waif to a bodybuilder-esque figure with ripped abs. I can see why people like you will never upload a profile pic, and use video game avatars or whatever. It makes it harder to make things up... Funny enough a long time ago I confronted another meat addict on this site who self admitted to eating at maximum 1200-1800 calories a day, and claimed to be losing weight via calorie restriction. Then he later tried toclaim he was working out 10 hours a week for competition. In which case as an adult male consuming only 1200-1800 calories he would be almost anorexic thin and not need to lose weight. This is what happens to you anecdotal nancies often enough. Maybe he is another super ninja marathoner, cum-bodybuilder, too? Suffice it to say alot of Westerners have bad dietary and lifestyle habits and want to invent personas instead of admitting online to what they are really doing. Anyway an actually qualified archaeologist on what our real life paleo ancestors actually ate, and not the imaginings of bro-scientists like Sisson and his invented Grok:

External link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
Hint: nothing paleo dangerous fad advocate authors advocate, was anything that was likely around in Paleolithic times, let alone the problem of that appeal to nature fallacy. Let alone their stupid assumption that there was just one highly meat prejudiced paleo diet, just like there is no one diet eaten by the humanity of today, it generally used to be depend on regional variations.

Also about this lama nonsense -- in the closed vegetarian thread, the most cited lamas for the virtues of meat eating: Namkhai Norbu and Sogyal Rinpoche, what shape are they in? What do Tibetan lamas know about nutrition, coming from a society where only a few strains of barley would grow and they just ate what few things they could in their exceedingly harsh climate just to survive?

@Qing Tan:
Oh so now you were a bodybuilding esque fellow, too! Haha, this is too funny. In the post where you stated what you ate and it was mostly carbs, and somewhere in this thread you stated you ate "lowered carbs". Who that believes in bodybuilding nonsense is eating a majority of carbs? Lol. And then you allegedly "lowered" the carbs from your previous bodybuilding carb height. Too funny.

FYI, for the imaginationland crowd: bodybuilding split routines and training theory is not effective and doesn't need to be, because bodybuilders use performance enhancers. Even so most will not bulk up to 240+ lb., even if they are well over 6 feet tall. And fyi, unlike you I can actually post my pic, which anyone can clearly see is not the pic of an overweight person. Yet all these fictional bodybuilders, marathoners, muscled up forty year olds with sick packs, those who workout over 10 hours a week, plus work and family, of dharmawheel, who argue us back to the nutrition dark ages, won't. I don't think it is a coincidence. After-all a picture is a thousand words. So the folks who want to make up fantasies don't want the thousands of words a picture would rob of them replacing.

Yes, my nom-de-plum is very telling. I am not an East Asian wannabe, who will abandon my heritage, for one.
Last edited by Thrasymachus on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:08 am

The bodybuilding things was an example. This should have been self-evident from the use of the word 'Example' in that post. Or are you really that obtuse?

I use a Chinese name because half of my family is Chinese, and I can choose English or Chinese ( 夏 晴 天 )
So once again you have made an incorrect assumption based on ignorance.

This thread is closed for me now. Enjoy barking at the moon.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Nemo » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:51 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
Nemo wrote:... Some Italians are immune to arterial sclerosis.


Oh man, you guys are so pathetic it is not funny. You mean the Italians of previous decades eating their traditional Mediterranean diet with low amounts of animal products, thus low amounts of dietary cholesterol? Well they are not eating the same diet, they eat alot more meat, milk and cheese and they have closed the gap with Western Europeans in terms of arterial blockages. I suggest you read more and make up stuff less. I come from these Mediterranean people, and I actually read and don't make stuff up.


Actually I was talking about paraoxonase gene polymorphisms(HAGRID: 0142)on the 7th chromosome. Some small Italian subpopulations did not have a correlative link between lipid levels, arteriosclerosis and MI's. They seem largely resistant to LDL oxidation and the concomitant immune response responsible for hardening of the arteries. The gene is also strongly correlated to Irish and Italian octogenarians.



Thrasymachus wrote:
Nemo wrote:In some countries 85% of people cannot digest milk.

Yes, that is true. But does anyone thrive on milk? No. The countries that consume the most milk like the USA and Finland have the most osteoporosis. Meat consumption is something that allows people to live in inhospitable areas like the high Tibetan plateau, Northern Canada, the Greenland ice-sheet, etc., where they wouldn't otherwise. But these populations are puny, and have ill-health, that is the trade-off. There is no one trying to promote a Tibetan, Mongolian or Inuit diet, except perhaps Paleo-eque hucksters.
Small amounts of milk products are not a major health issue if you have the genes to digest it. No one was advocating living off of milk products except you. This is a straw man. The point was genes control how food effects you. I can see why you want to change the subject since your distilled argument is that you know what is best for everyone on the planet.

Thrasymachus wrote:
Nemo wrote:Eating a diet similar to what anthropologists and archaeologists have pieced together I am 200 pounds with abs in my mid 40's. ...

Is this before or after you were so desperate to try Atkins style ketosis that your pissed smelled like nail polish in your own words? Sounds like total bs to me. On the one hand in one anecdotal post, you were so desperate to lose weight, you resorted to that, but now to discredit vegetarianism you went from a 130 lb. waif to a bodybuilder-esque figure with ripped abs. I can see why people like you will never upload a profile pic, and use video game avatars or whatever.
Actually that is a picture of me in my bunny suit during NBC(Nuke Chem Bio) warfare training. You know, like in the video games guys like you play in their mothers basement. Unless you send me at least a picture of you in some revealing evening wear you won't be getting a picture of me with my shirt off. I think that is an internet rule.

Thrasymachus wrote:
External link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
Thank you. Great video on what people actually used to eat. That is the type of scientist I look to for dietary advice. I buy 3 meals worth of meat a week. I do also eat meat while eating out once a week as well. I try to eat mostly vegetarian choices. The only thing I cut out is grains and coffee. I will eat grains about once a week which according to food extracted from turtle shell cooking vessels seems about right.

Thrasymachus wrote:Also about this lama nonsense -- in the closed vegetarian thread, the most cited lamas for the virtues of meat eating: Namkhai Norbu and Sogyal Rinpoche, what shape are they in? What do Tibetan lamas know about nutrition, coming from a society where only a few strains of barley would grow and they just ate what few things they could in their exceedingly harsh climate just to survive?

He recommended vegetarianism to some students. He understood people's individual physiology can be radically different. Something all people acquainted with medicine understand. I pray for all the meat I consume and have not given up finding out how to make my physiology thrive on an ethically superior plants only diet.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:52 pm

Thras's arguments and rebuttals are just simply ridonkulus.

Yes, Thras, keep citing the "experts" like T. Colin Campbell whose data we've already plowed great big holes through. That will show us you're not blindly ranting. Your confirmation bias, backfire effect + total lack of understanding regarding scientific method = giant sheets of words resulting in utter failure. You are demonstrating nothing more than the fragile threads by which your argument hangs, so please continue.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Simon E. » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:22 pm

Frankly if Thrasymachus was right about ANYTHING ..he would still be wrong.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Luke » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:54 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:Oh man, you guys are so pathetic it is not funny. You mean the Italians of previous decades eating their traditional Mediterranean diet with low amounts of animal products, thus low amounts of dietary cholesterol?

Do you not consider seafood "animals"? lol I am not an expert on what Italians eat, but I believe that they have historically and currently eat a lot of seafood.

At least eating seafood is very important to them at Christmas time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Seven_Fishes

Maybe some Italian members here could set us straight on this issue...

Thrasymachus wrote:Well they are not eating the same diet, they eat alot more meat, milk and cheese and they have closed the gap with Western Europeans in terms of arterial blockages. I suggest you read more and make up stuff less. I come from these Mediterranean people, and I actually read and don't make stuff up.

I haven't read any data about Italy, but assuming that they eat more fast food now than they did before (as in other western countries), the use of trans fats in processed foods of all sorts (fast food, snack food, etc.) is also a big factor damaging their health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat#Health_risks

Thrasymachus wrote:self admitted to eating at maximum 1200-1800 calories a day, and claimed to be losing weight via calorie restriction.

Well, reducing one's calories below maintenance level is the most important factor for losing weight, so it's no suprise that somebody mentions it! lol

The ratio of macronutrients one eats influences the details of one's body composition, though, and as I mentioned before, everybody has a different body and a different metabolism. No one diet is going to be perfect for everyone.

Thrasymachus wrote:Also about this lama nonsense -- in the closed vegetarian thread, the most cited lamas for the virtues of meat eating: Namkhai Norbu and Sogyal Rinpoche, what shape are they in?

What does it matter what shape they're in? One could just as easily find photos of two fat vegans. Two photos prove nothing.

I know that the Tibetan Buddhists say that eating meating helps with Tummo meditation, but I've never done tummo so I can't comment on this. But this is off-topic anyway...

Thrasymachus wrote:@Qing Tan:
Who that believes in bodybuilding nonsense is eating a majority of carbs? Lol.


Well, this guy for example. lol But he only says that he eats 50% carbs off-season. He doesn't describe his pre-contest diet.
http://www.bodybuilders.com/jonaland.htm

So even all bodybuilders are different. Quite a few eat a bit more carbs than protein. Some eat more protein than carbs. Some are on the "Anabolic Diet" and eat primarily fat. It depends on the individual...

I don't think most bodybuilders eat low carb diets year-round, but they exercise so much that they need the carbs for energy and for building muscle. However, somebody whose only exercise is a bit of brisk walking a few times a week has very different nutritional needs than a bodybuilder.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby untxi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:47 pm

I've been watching this thread for some time. I've been across the dietary spectrum in my life: eating crap American food; omnivore; paleo; low-carb; macrobiotic; vegetarian; vegan; and recommendations by traditional Chinese and Tibetan physicians. Silly thought: perhaps diet is like dharma-- there are many paths according to the needs of beings.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:40 pm

Nemo wrote:
Thrasymachus wrote:
External link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
Thank you. Great video on what people actually used to eat. That is the type of scientist I look to for dietary advice. I buy 3 meals worth of meat a week. I do also eat meat while eating out once a week as well. I try to eat mostly vegetarian choices. The only thing I cut out is grains and coffee. I will eat grains about once a week which according to food extracted from turtle shell cooking vessels seems about right.


You probably know this already, but essentially her argument is pro-paleo diet without her apparent knowledge.

And some things she said are just incorrect, like the crap about intestinal length. For the sake of brevity, I'll just post some links...

Chimp's intestinal length vs. human's and why:
http://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topi ... ngth-ratio

New Food Plate replaces Food Pyramid:
http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/ ... 408109.php

New science about fat:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso ... ull-story/
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:28 am

Okay, now that I have a little more time, I want to add some additional thoughts about this Ted talk. The beginning of her talk really irks me because she states so strongly that there are no known adaptations to meat-consumption indicating humans are supposed to eat meat and then she goes on to say the usual bs about how humans have longer intestines for fermenting food like all other herbivores, compares our teeth to tigers or whatever and has the general demeanor that she has just stated absolute fact, which is quite a load of garbage because...

Measuring the length of intestines vs. the length of the torso of different animals, we find that carnivores have about a 3:1 ratio and herbivores such as horses have a 12:1 ratio (100 ft of intestines) while other herbivores such as the cow are even more extreme with a ratio of 20:1, not to mention 4 stomachs. Humans are about 8:1, right in the middle; about what you'd expect for an omnivore, no? What's the middle of 3 and 12? How about the middle of 3 and 20? Furthermore, our closest relatives, the chimpanzee have a shorter small intestine and a longer large intestine with significant differences. While human beings can't digest cellulose, chimps can digest actual twigs. So, humans longer small intestine points to a diet closer to the carnivore than the chimp's diet. And chimps aren't even herbivores, they are also omnivores. This was shown in the previous link http://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topi ... ngth-ratio as well as the following: http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/com ... t-6c.shtml and elsewhere. Arguments to the contrary are not very brilliant or convincing considering these basic facts which are really incontestable. Herbivores have longer intestines and specialized organs to digest plant matter which we simply do not have (see this very comprehensive post: http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-ro ... egetables/ ) Clearly, the difference in our intestines compared to a chimp's indicates adaptation toward meat eating and not the reverse, which is the exact opposite of the argument she is trying to make. If we were more herbivorous than chimps, our small intestine would be even shorter and our large intestine even longer and more adapted to a plant-based diet... but, it's not.

Then there is the stupid argument about teeth again. We don't have horse teeth, we don't have cow teeth. If anything, we have teeth closer to the chimpanzee, which, again, are omnivore teeth, not herbivore teeth. We don't have giant canines like tigers, but why would we? Nobody is suggesting human beings are carnivores. People also make the argument, strangely, that humans don't have the stomach acid or proper enzymes to digest raw meat (funny how they don't bother with such points when we are discussing, for example, digesting plant matter like cellulose). People have been eating raw meat for years with less trouble than they would have if they tried to live off grass and twigs. Yes, raw paleo foodies eat raw meat regularly. So do those "healthy Asians" we hear so much about from T. Colin Campbell, etc. This video absolutely disgusts me, but people have been eating like this for a long time (probably before we discovered fire, no?) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGySn4H0KbQ

But, anyway, she really focuses on meat, which is not what the paleo diet is all about. It's not. It's about lots of plant food and much less of certain kinds of plant food and some meat. You can do it vegan, if you want, too. She also makes a big deal out of the fact that she found grain and legumes in the teeth plaque of ancient man, as if it has anything to do with anything. These ancient men certainly weren't eating anywhere near the US recommended allowance of grains, which is the point of the paleo diets. Also, her argument about how broccoli, carrots, bananas, etc. are not paleolithic foods is extraneous drivel; we've known this since the "caveman diet" first came out in the 70s. It's irrelevant. The carrot is now easier to eat than ever while grains still have phytates, gluten, proteins and fiber which are generally difficult to digest. Carrots also have high sugar content and so is eaten in moderation on paleo diets. If she'd done her homework on the diet, she would not use such terrible strawmen in her attempts to debunk it.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:32 am

And the grandaddy of the paleo diet is doing pretty good after 30 years on the diet:



Around 15 minutes in, he shows his choloesterol levels, triglycerides and a nice picture of his healthy heart.

He looks about as good as Mimi Kirk, who has been a vegetarian for the same amount of time. The big difference is that Mimi Kirk had high cholesterol as a vegetarian and her doctor wanted to put her on statins. She also had arthritic aches and pains before she went raw and drastically changed her already vegetarian diet, as she states in her interview here: http://www.louisewallis.net/?page_id=243
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:39 am

Moderator note: Topic is back open

Due to this topic being closed for a little while a number of other related topics were created by members regarding vegetarian / vegan / omnivore diets and issues so I have merged all of them together.

We now have 2,480 posts in this thread!
Our sister site, Dhamma Wheel has 2,288 posts in their Great vegetarian debate.

Combined; almost 5,000 posts!

:popcorn:
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