the great vegetarian debate

[Indrajala]

Personally, I find veganism to be a form of dietary vanity. This is demonstrated by the fact that it seems that although many vegetarians aren't pushy, vegans seem to almost universally be militant PETA members.

What a sweeping general statement. Fact and "it seems", eh?

Although it's possible to have a well-planned vegan diet, in practice most don't, so they look anorexic and sickly, like cocaine and heroin addicts.

You're making more foolish statements.

And you typically need to be taking dietary supplements, which are expensive.

No, you don't. There are many Buddhist vegetarians who are actually vegan as they decline to take eggs and dairy (the latter still being kind of foreign to their diets to begin with).

They are healthy without having to take dietary supplements. The only concern is vitamin B12 which is probably over exaggerated as traditionally East Asian Buddhist monks and nuns were entirely vegan yet still lived long lives despite never taking supplements.

Even if you have to take vitamin B12 supplements they are not expensive.

If you eat the cheapest, healthiest diet possible (which would include meat in many western countries -- perhaps not in Asia), with the money left over you could more wisely spend it on charitable causes that would benefit other lives -- instead of complex ingredients for a vegan diet and dietary supplements.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Eating a vegan diet is cheap provided you cook for yourself. If you want proof look at Taiwanese Buddhism.

Like Hanzze says:

One more step forward is, just to take what is given

This is better.

"Please don't kill anything, but I will eat whatever you have for me".

If you're not willing to kill the animal yourself, why expect another to do it for you?

[Indrajala]

I have been vegan more than 10 years now, but feel mentally and physically like shit most of the time.

Plus side: you don't have to worry about offending anyone by turning into a salesman for your lifestyle.

Being vegetarian or vegan is not a lifestyle choice just as not being a thief is likewise not a lifestyle choice.

[KeithBC]

Personally, I find veganism to be a form of dietary vanity.

Any practice can be a vanity if that's the way you do it. Even meditation and chanting mantras. But if you aren't vain about it, then it isn't.

vegans seem to almost universally be militant PETA members.

If you generalize based on militant PETA members, then of course that is what you will conclude. And of course you are more likely to generalize about them rather than about normal people because they are so much more visible. But if you control your generalizing so that you look at normal people, you will find that most vegans are normal people.

Although it's possible to have a well-planned vegan diet, in practice most don't, so they look anorexic and sickly, like cocaine and heroin addicts.

Generalizations tell us more about the colour of glasses you look through than they do about what you are looking at.

Veganism is a fine way of putting Buddhist values into practice. It is not a requirement unless one's conscience dictates it to be so.

Om mani padme hum
Keith

[Individual]

One more step forward is, just to take what is given

This is better.

"Please don't kill anything, but I will eat whatever you have for me".

If you're not willing to kill the animal yourself, why expect another to do it for you?

If they were not willing to kill, they would not bring me meat.

[fragrant herbs]

I have been vegan more than 10 years now, but feel mentally and physically like shit most of the time.

I am sorry to hear this. Have you been to see a doctor to find out why? I would encourage it.

[Hanzze]

Like Hanzze says:

One more step forward is, just to take what is given

This is better.

"Please don't kill anything, but I will eat whatever you have for me".

If you're not willing to kill the animal yourself, why expect another to do it for you?

To be just vegetarian is a lie. The point is not killing, not order to kill and not accept killing. If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.
That is the reason why Buddha toke what was given, and also his disciples walk for begging. That is the only way to abstain from killing, be not involved and don't force it.
Humans ideas to bend the truth is endless.
If you also reject meat when you walk for your alms round, that would be a good teaching, but some would be mad at you.

[Individual]

To be just vegetarian is a lie. The point is not killing, not order to kill and not accept killing. If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.
That is the reason why Buddha toke what was given, and also his disciples walk for begging. That is the only way to abstain from killing, be not involved and don't force it.
Humans ideas to bend the truth is endless.
If you also reject meat when you walk for your alms round, that would be a good teaching, but some would be mad at you.

I would love to be in a world with nothing but vegetarians.

And what about veganism? (Hanzze, in case you don't know that word, vegan = vegetarian + no egg, dairy, etc.). Veganism doesn't make much sense because there is not even any killing involved in milking a cow or making eggs. I know the argument, "Dairy cows and egg hens are often used for their meat too." By this same reasoning, vegans should not enter a grocery store which sells meat, because although they sell vegetables, they also are complicit in the manufacture and sale of meat.

[Hanzze]

I would love to be in a world with nothing but vegetarians.

And what about veganism? (Hanzze, in case you don't know that word, vegan = vegetarian + no egg, dairy, etc.). Veganism doesn't make much sense because there is not even any killing involved in milking a cow or making eggs. I know the argument, "Dairy cows and egg hens are often used for their meat too." By this same reasoning, vegans should not enter a grocery store which sells meat, because although they sell vegetables, they also are complicit in the manufacture and sale of meat.

What is the problem with eggs not inseminated? Should we let it rotten?
What is the problem with shared milk? Should we tip it away?
I guess it just a helpless try to find a solution while ignoring the truth of killing. In a "modern" society you will not find a way out in any way.

That remembers me on ascetic. That leads to nothing than suffering. The middle path, between need and want. Not the middle path between all kinds of wants.

[ground]

To be just vegetarian is a lie. The point is not killing, not order to kill and not accept killing. If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.

That is an incorrect presentation from a Mahayana point of view.

The point of not eating meat is not causing harm.

When you eat meat you can only do so when you accept killing and when you accept that there is someone who does the killing Why? Because the proof for that is right in front of you on your plate.
So the harm caused is twofold: With reference to the being being killed and with reference to the being who does the killing.

This is not the case with vegatarian food. Why? Because you can not know for sure that killing is involved.

Kind regards

[Hanzze]

Often I had discussions about killing with monks. Cambodian monks are smart in finding a way out in keeping there desire.

"When have a sward in your hand you close your eyes and you start to dance swinging the sward. Do you think you could harm others?"

"When you know that our modern agriculture is using pesticides, destroying masses of forest, spending mass on gasoline for its produce, do you think buying vegetables will harm?"

It is a lie, even it seams to be better at the fist view. Try to plant your vegetables and you will see your self how many fight you have to win till you can eat it.
Only by observing your self you will understand. That has nothing to do with views, that is Buddhadharma.

[ground]

"When you know that our modern agriculture is using pesticides, destroying masses of forest, spending mass on gasoline for its produce, do you think buying vegetables will harm?"

It is a lie, even it seams to be better at the fist view.

You are choosing what you consume.

Do not accuse others of lying. Look into yourself whether there is lie or not.

Advocating eating meat does not generate conducive conditions for your path.

Kind regards

[ground]

We should encourage each other to renounce causing harm wherever possible!

Let's advocate virtuous conduct!


Kind regards

[Hanzze]

Dear TMingyur,
I encourage everybody to eat vegetarian. It needs me a long time to get even the people in my household understand that. But they also understand the meaning behind now. That is the best way we can do. But it is a lie to tell people there is no bad karma behind. The essence is not harming. And the essence is going beyond.
Buddha gave his disciples the way of begging because that is the best to stay not involved in harming.
You are choosing what you consume is also wrong, you consume what you choose. Not choosing and take that what is given is the noble way of not harming.
Looking into one self, is most important and I would not tell it if I haven't experiences it by my self. To tell something without having seen it by one self is easily a lie.
To be vegetarian is also good for your meditation practice and keep a lot of anger and fear away from you. People love to follow rules, but to follow rules is very dangerous without understanding. You do not live where live happens. Here you would realize nature much faster. Some vegetables have more blood on it than some roosted chicken.
We could close our eyes, but ignore the truth do not protect from karmic results.
May all have the possibility to live on a peaceful place, may all have the possibility to grow their food in a peaceful way.

[ground]

Through eating meat one knowingly causes harm. Do not do that!

Kind regards

[Hanzze]

Through eating vegetables from the supermarket one knowingly causes harm. Do not do that!

[ground]

That is why the wise praise discerning wisdom.

Homage to Manjushri!


Kind regards

[Hanzze]

To eat only eggs (not inseminate) and milk products is a good possibility to abstain from killing, if you have the possibility to take care of some animals. They will love to share

[KeithBC]

To be just vegetarian is a lie. ... If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.

No it isn't a lie. It is merely dukkha. All vegetarians know that some killing is regrettably unavoidable in growing vegetables. This is not a big revelation. However, vegetarians also know that less killing is better than more killing. Less dukkha.

Perfection is only possible for buddhas. For the rest of us, we must strive for perfection but be satisfied with merely doing our best.

Om mani padme hum
Keith

[KeithBC]

Veganism doesn't make much sense because there is not even any killing involved in milking a cow or making eggs. I know the argument, "Dairy cows and egg hens are often used for their meat too."

You would find it fruitful to ask real vegans what their arguments actually are, instead of setting up straw men to shoot down.

Om mani padme hum
Keith

[Individual]

To be just vegetarian is a lie. ... If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.

No it isn't a lie. It is merely dukkha. All vegetarians know that some killing is regrettably unavoidable in growing vegetables. This is not a big revelation. However, vegetarians also know that less killing is better than more killing. Less dukkha.

Perfection is only possible for buddhas. For the rest of us, we must strive for perfection but be satisfied with merely doing our best.

Om mani padme hum
Keith

Keith, the local Zen monk here broke down morality for his students with two very simple rules:
1. Don't abuse others.
2. Don't abuse oneself.

I agree that in most cases, in modern society vegetarianism is the ideal because it fits that criteria. Not so for veganism. Veganism is an unnecessary burden for self. Even if Mahayana texts do advocate vegetarianism, do any of them advocate veganism?