the great vegetarian debate

[kirtu]

Brad Plumer (WP Wonkbook) on Americans eating less meat - long term trend rather than just a result of the 2008 Depression.

Kirt

[JinpaRangdrol]

Uh, because I don't believe that is possible. Namdrol once said he's a vegetarian now EXCEPT for not refusing such offerings because he didn't quite think he had that ability himself, but he would never refuse ritual substances.

Our bodies, essentially, are composed of rtsal which is expressed in our ignorance as the five outer and inner elements.

When pracitioners eat the flesh of those who have been killed (necessarily by someone else, not at our specific encouragement, nor have we seen the animal killed) a postive cause is created for this being. Why? Because a connection is made through the field of rtsal which also includes minds.

Since we don't eat anything but cattle, pigs, goats, sheep, fowl, fish and seafood, these animals are in some sense luckier than others, they are more closely associated with human beings, and more likely to wind up in the diet of practitioners.

It is not a question of ability, it is question of knowledge. When you know how everything is connected through rtsal, then such questions about the mechanisms by which a practitioner consuming the flesh of some unfortunate animal benefits that animal becomes very obvious.

The reason why Ganapujas have a powerful effect is that there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru. If your ganapuja is just a dry ritual, then of course it will have little benefit.

N

Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal. The only reason would be that being upstream yourself won't change anything ... but that's not a valid objection if you project it, let say, at a political level.

Sönam

I actually agree with you completely. I think that, as long as we live in a society in which we can readily find nutritional substitutions for meat (through supplementation and healthy vegetarian diets), then it's unacceptable to eat meat on a daily basis. I was vegetarian for 6 years when I first started practicing Buddhism because it seemed like the "right thing to do," but then I spent a few years eating meat, constantly justifying it to myself with the same ol' Vajrayana rhetoric of "imbibing poison to transform it." Eventually, I just broke down and couldn't justify anymore. If I'm unwilling to purchase human meat, or to go out and kill an animal myself to eat it, then I should by no means financially support an industry that makes its money on the torture and slaughter of animals. Now, while I'd never refuse the Samaya substances in a Ganachakra, I also refrain from eating meat because it just no longer makes sense to my conscience.

[Malcolm]

Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.

This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.

[Sönam]

Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.

This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.

yes but, as you explained to me years ago, there is a hierarchy by animals regarding buddhahood ...

Sönam

[JinpaRangdrol]

Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.

This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.

yes but, as you explained to me years ago, there is a hierarchy by animals regarding buddhahood ...

Sönam

I would love to hear more on this.

[Sönam]

when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam

[Malcolm]

Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.

This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.

yes but, as you explained to me years ago, there is a hierarchy by animals regarding buddhahood ...

Sönam

I did not explain it, but other people maintain that higher animals lives are more precious because they are higher life forms.

[padma norbu]

What I would like to know is... how do I bring them back to life? You know, like Tilopa. just kidding.

[Malcolm]

when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam

Yes, I never explained such a principle. I violently disagree with this point of view, actually.

[Malcolm]

What I would like to know is... how do I bring them back to life? You know, like Tilopa. just kidding.

Well, I think rebirth pretty much covers it.

[Adamantine]

Can Insects Feel Pain?
.

Just to shake things up even more, it's a must to read this book as an overview of contemporary scientific research into intelligence in life forms other-than-human, --including plants (that make decisions, interact with their environments, and appear to feel pain) and slime molds which solve mazes. Warning-- the contents of this book certainly do challenge some long-held Buddhist beliefs about the limits of "sentience" .

http://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Nature-Inquiry-into-Knowledge/dp/1585423998

[Acchantika]

Can Insects Feel Pain?
.

Just to shake things up even more, it's a must to read this book as an overview of contemporary scientific research into intelligence in life forms other-than-human, --including plants (that make decisions, interact with their environments, and appear to feel pain) and slime molds which solve mazes. Warning-- the contents of this book certainly do challenge some long-held Buddhist beliefs about the limits of "sentience" .

I just wanted to clarify that whether an insect can or can't feel pain is not a reflection of whether or not it is sentient. As before, some human's can't feel pain, but that doesn't mean they are not sentient. Just as humans lack the sensory capabilities to detect gamma rays, but are sentient, insects lack a centralized nervous system which would make it impossible for them to experience pain as we currently understand it. But, we may understand it wrong. Either way, this doesn't mean they are not aware or conscious at all.

when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam

I violently disagree with this point of view, actually.

Forced to kill one or the other, what would inform your decision?

[Malcolm]

Can Insects Feel Pain?
.

Just to shake things up even more, it's a must to read this book as an overview of contemporary scientific research into intelligence in life forms other-than-human, --including plants (that make decisions, interact with their environments, and appear to feel pain) and slime molds which solve mazes. Warning-- the contents of this book certainly do challenge some long-held Buddhist beliefs about the limits of "sentience" .

I just wanted to clarify that whether an insect can or can't feel pain is not a reflection of whether or not it is sentient. As before, some human's can't feel pain, but that doesn't mean they are not sentient. Just as humans lack the sensory capabilities to detect gamma rays, but are sentient, insects lack a centralized nervous system which would make it impossible for them to experience pain as we currently understand it. But, we may understand it wrong. Either way, this doesn't mean they are not aware or conscious at all.

when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam

I violently disagree with this point of view, actually.

Forced to kill one or the other, what would inform your decision?

I would insist the person forcing me be the one to choose.

[PadmaVonSamba]

If a being takes birth as an animal,
supposedly this is the result of some previous karma.
This being could spend many years an animal,
enduring all the sufferings of the animal realm.
But, possibly, when it is still young,
this animal could be killed and eaten by another animal
such as a bipedal primate
and soon take rebirth as a human
and study dharma.
So, you never know when you might be doing a hamburger a big favor.
.
.
.

[catmoon]

If a being takes birth as an animal,
supposedly this is the result of some previous karma.
This being could spend many years an animal,
enduring all the sufferings of the animal realm.
But, possibly, when it is still young,
this animal could be killed and eaten by another animal
such as a bipedal primate
and soon take rebirth as a human
and study dharma.
So, you never know when you might be doing a hamburger a big favor.

Hmm. This might be your last life as a human before you attain Buddhahood. Mind if I hurry it along a bit? I'm so hungry.

[PadmaVonSamba]

If a being takes birth as an animal,
supposedly this is the result of some previous karma.
This being could spend many years an animal,
enduring all the sufferings of the animal realm.
But, possibly, when it is still young,
this animal could be killed and eaten by another animal
such as a bipedal primate
and soon take rebirth as a human
and study dharma.
So, you never know when you might be doing a hamburger a big favor.

Hmm. This might be your last life as a human before you attain Buddhahood. Mind if I hurry it along a bit? I'm so hungry.

I hope you like barbeque. I am destined for many hell realms first.
but I never read any sutra that specifically prohibited cannibalism,
so grab a fork.

[Malcolm]

I hope you like barbeque. I am destined for many hell realms first.
but I never read any sutra that specifically prohibited cannibalism,
so grab a fork.

It is prohibited in Vinaya, along with the meat of predators and so on.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I hope you like barbeque. I am destined for many hell realms first.
but I never read any sutra that specifically prohibited cannibalism,
so grab a fork.

It is prohibited in Vinaya, along with the meat of predators and so on.

Oh well. That just leaves more for everybody else i suppose.

Thanks for the info!

[Malcolm]

http://www.grist.org/list/2012-01-12-am ... 0-year-low

[Virgo]

http://www.grist.org/list/2012-01-12-american-beef-consumption-is-at-a-50-year-low

Dear Loppon,

Is that because of Eco-nomics?