the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby LastLegend » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:13 pm

Buddhism is teaching is education. It does not enforce its teachings.
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NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:51 pm

BTW, ChNN just mentioned the "miserable compassion" of sutra and lower tantra at 9:50 am ET or so in open webcast.

Using meat in ganapuja guarantees that animal's course in samsara is ended.

N
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:29 pm

Namdrol wrote:.

Using meat in ganapuja guarantees that animal's course in samsara is ended.

N


hey, maybe i'm gonna go to New Guinea like Michael Rockefeller, get killed and eaten, and then my course in samsara will be ended! fast-track! there's even a vajrayana tradition in that part of the world.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:42 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:.

Using meat in ganapuja guarantees that animal's course in samsara is ended.

N


hey, maybe i'm gonna go to New Guinea like Michael Rockefeller, get killed and eaten, and then my course in samsara will be ended! fast-track!



No, that won't work.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:.

Using meat in ganapuja guarantees that animal's course in samsara is ended.

N


hey, maybe i'm gonna go to New Guinea like Michael Rockefeller, get killed and eaten, and then my course in samsara will be ended! fast-track!



No, that won't work.


even if you get eaten at a ganapuja (after all, there has been vajrayana in those parts from centuries ago)?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:52 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
even if you get eaten at a ganapuja (after all, there has been vajrayana in those parts from centuries ago)?


Well, first of all, this is not necessary, since you are human being -- there are other methods in Dzogchen to guarantee your samsara is finished in this lifetime.

Secondly, there are laws against cannibalism, so you have to work with circumstances, sorry.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Willy » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Adamantine wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
That said though, the Guru is the primary guide in Vajrayana, not texts.. so really, your Vajra bros have a valid point.
It's good to follow one's own convictions and be vegetarian if that is what you deem most virtuous. But it is not very helpful to judge other's harshly either, especially one's own Guru. Better to assume you may not see the whole picture yet: I mean, this reminds me of the other thread where Namdrol claims that he doesn't know any arrogant Western Buddhists? :tongue:


Well said. I was a vegetarian for 7 years for the good reasons outlined by our vegetarian friends in this post. After a dose of parasites and a slow recovery (1 year of blood in my runny stool - no more details) I ate meat to recover. Not only did I regain my strength quickly, I became much more mentally grounded and stable.

I am glad that I was vegetarian for a period, because I eat meat with different attitude than veggies. I also say mantras over the meat which my teachers taught me.

What I like about your message is that vegetarians should be proud of their diligence and intentions, but should not judge others who eat meat- and should especially not think that Buddhism supports their feelings of judgement. Yes it is better for the environment, yes it is less wasteful. Yes it's taking yourself out of a very diluted connection to a single animal. But it's not a Buddhist teaching.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Pero » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Or, we could all move to the mountain caves and practice chulen, live off the essences and stop harming all life-forms?
Sound like a plan?


The sgra thal rgyur tantra has a a section on the chu len of meat.

Oh wow, that's interesting.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:37 am

I really appreciate the references to the Lankavantara Sutra on this matter.
We are all interconnected. Even the vegetarian is connected to the butcher in some way.
You may not buy meat, but you educate the butcher's children, you pay the police to protect his business,
You make the clothes that he wears.

I am moving back to a vegetarian diet, gradually.
When given the choice I am planning to choose meatless foods
but when offered a meal I will accept it without attachment.
If one doesn't feel superior to another, then one doesn't intentionally create the illusion of self and other.

A vegetarian diet is best - for those who can maintain one
but as soon as one thinks they are superior for not eating meat, all karmic benefit is lost anyway.
Regardless of how one eats
it would be wonderful to have a meal with everybody here.
.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:53 am

notice the continuation of the tendency for many people in this thread to talk about themselves, or accuse vegetarians of thinking they're superior or arrogant, or that they're wasting their "precious human birth" because they don't do what you think they should do (mind-control cult talk). nowhere in the posts of the carnivores do i see any compassion for animals, or wishes that they could be free from suffering in this life. the insistence that the only chance the poor animals have is for them to be murdered so you can eat them tantrikally strikes me as arrogant, but again, its not about us, or it shouldn't be. It should be about trying to reduce suffering for all sentient beings in the here and now. insisting that because "most people" will never stop eating meat, "therefore" not eating meat has no effect on the suffering in the world, is bone-headedness of truly staggering proportions, but I know very well what the response to this will be: sophistry and legalistic arguments to make the most crooked lawyer proud, and all I can do is observe it in sadness. really. i always hoped that, if nothing else, Buddhists understood the importance of compassion, not as some abstract concept, but rather as concrete action in the world.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mr. G » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:05 am

:soapbox:
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:06 am

Mr. G wrote::soapbox:


exactly: attack me so you don't have to listen to the message. dont worry, ive said my piece and will not post further in this thread (im sure all you carnivores are all broken up about that. :tongue: )
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Norwegian » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:12 am

People have to specifically type out in posts that they have compassion for animals in order for you to believe that they have just that?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:19 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Mr. G wrote::soapbox:


exactly: attack me so you don't have to listen to the message. dont worry, ive said my piece and will not post further in this thread (im sure all you carnivores are all broken up about that. :tongue: )

We'll eat you if you do.

No seriously. Take a look at your line of reasoning. We don't have real world compassion because we actually eat the flesh of an animal which is dead. You do have real world compassion because even though lots of beings die, from rodents to insects etc, in the raising and harvesting of crops, just so you can eat, you do not actually eat their dead, lifeless bodies. Yeah your compassion is through the roof-- you purchase food for which many living creatures are both intentionally killed and unintentionally killed so that you can eat it, but your the good guy because you don't actually eat their flesh, just the vegies, grains, fruits, etc. That's like saying I steal but I never look at the person when I steal from them so I'm not responsible for a crime. Many living beings die so you can eat at each meal. It's no different if you eat rice and vegetables or a well prepared steak dinner.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:11 am

gad rgyangs wrote: i always hoped that, if nothing else, Buddhists understood the importance of compassion, not as some abstract concept, but rather as concrete action in the world.


What we have discovered about you is that your notion of compassion is very hemmed in by conceptual limitations concerning proper diet.

But if you wish to be a disciple of Devadatta, than that is your choice.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nemo » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:32 am

By your logic if you were truly compassionate then you would become a Jain. Only eat fruit that falls from trees, limit the number of steps you take every day and eventually starve yourself to death and be reborn in the Heaven of the 33. All common Jainist practices.

If on the other hand you got an old school Kagyu or Nyingma Lama they would probably do something that I saw done to an annoying vegetarian who became a nun. She was given a Samaya during her ordination to eat a pound of liver a week. I don't know if it was for her benefit or the Sanghas, lol
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:38 am

gad rgyangs wrote:notice the continuation of the tendency for many people in this thread to talk about themselves, or accuse vegetarians of thinking they're superior or arrogant, or that they're wasting their "precious human birth" because they don't do what you think they should do (mind-control cult talk). nowhere in the posts of the carnivores do i see any compassion for animals, or wishes that they could be free from suffering in this life.


I was a vegetarian for 16 years and i think, looking back, was rather arrogant about it. Nonetheless, I was always busy rescuing trapped birds or stray dogs or other injured animals. I have been eating meat again for about 22 years. and I still keep busy trying to save animals from suffering, just as before. When bugs wander into the house, I do everything I can do save them and put them outside again (probably where they will get eaten by a bird). I cannot imagine intentionally hurting an animal.
I also do the cooking for my family, and they want to eat meat, and so I eat what they don't eat. Sometimes I share in it equally, because you might as well cook the whole thing and eat it. And when somebody offers me food and it has meat in it, I eat it. And when somebody gave us a honey-glazed ham for Christmas, I ate a lot of it, because it tastes soooo good.

Does that make me a hypocrite? Probably!

So, perhaps the real concern isn't about buddhist meat eaters, but about buddhist hypocrites.
And from that, the question arises as to whether or not one feels superior to hypocrites.
And then, I think, this gets back to ego clinging.
Some of us eat meat sometimes. Nobody eats meat constantly.
But who among us,
clinging to a carnivorous or vegetarian 'self'
is not thus a Buddhist hypocrite somewhere along the way?
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Willy » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:50 am

I joined this forum reluctantly thinking I was going to encounter a bunch of Trycicle magazine toting, flip-flop wearing, palms pressed together, holier than thou, new age buddhists.

And instead what I've come to find is some really cool people who can go for a beer, tell a few jokes, and take a slap on the back- Like some real yogi reincarnated Kampas - who know how to defend the teachings, and speak from experience!

This is totally awesome! You guys rock!

I agree with whoever said it earlier, I would love to have a big dinner with all of you...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:34 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:I really appreciate the references to the Lankavantara Sutra on this matter.
I am moving back to a vegetarian diet, gradually.
If one doesn't feel superior to another, then one doesn't intentionally create the illusion of self and other.

A vegetarian diet is best - for those who can maintain one
but as soon as one thinks they are superior for not eating meat, all karmic benefit is lost anyway.
Regardless of how one eats
it would be wonderful to have a meal with everybody here.


:good:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:34 am

For those that think vegetarianism has no place in Buddhism, they are forgetting about the numerous references to not kill or cause to kill or to incite another to kill or to speak in praise of another killing, or even to allow another to kill, in the sutras (Pali and Mahayana) and also the direct teachings against meat in the Lankavatara Sutra and since this is a Mahayana forum, these sutras are relevant.

For those that think an omnivore diet has no place in Buddhism, they are forgetting about the sutras and teachings that seem to suggest some meat eating is acceptable, especially for monks and nuns who receive food on alms rounds (and also the prohibitions on some types of animal flesh, implying that others are okay). Therefore, there is room for both views within Buddhism and neither 'group' is excluded from being known as Buddhist.

I see one extreme form of vegetarians that condemn meat eaters and consider them to not be Buddhist. And then there is another extreme of meat eaters who believe all vegetarians are really Jains and that all vegetarians are "holier-than-thou" and are not real Buddhists and need to be forced to eat meat.

I think there can be a 'middle ground' among both vegetarians and omnivores:

For vegetarians, they can accept that meat eaters are Buddhist too and not take a fanatical position and action in regard to diet. For example, if they discover the soup they are eating has animal fat broth in it, there is no need to spit it out and make a scene. It is not going to bring the animal back to life. They can sit down and eat with omnivores and not complain about what they are eating. If paying for a meal at a restaurant with family and friends, there is no need to restrict them on 'what they can order.'

And for omnivores, they can accept that vegetarians are Buddhist too and not insist that the vegetarians need to be force-fed meat by another, even by a teacher to make some point. The omnivores can recognize that the vegetarians have made a choice with their diet and don't want to be force-fed anything, just as the omnivores don't want to be ordered about what they can and cannot eat.

I have seen aversion, arrogance, self-righteousness, and claims to being 'true Buddhists' by both sides from both extremes. Perhaps a more middle way position among both groups would cool the embers.

So, yes, let's all sit down and have a meal some time together and we can all order whatever we want!

:group:
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