the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:00 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Your words? Indeed. The cult of vegetarianism.
The parts of your lama's advice that don't agree with your pre-established ideas about diets are thrown away as bullshit. First and foremost: diet! Then Dzogchen and your master. You'll go far with that attitude.


its not a cult its called morality 101: non-killing. you've heard of it perhaps?



Eating meat does not equal killing -- I suggest you review Bhavaviveka's argument on this subject.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:03 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:So all the lamas who eat meat are foolish teachers incapable of getting such an easy thing? Lamas like Kalu Rinpoche, Chagdud Rinpoche, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, the Dalai Lama and so on and so forth? You know better than them and surely are more compassionate than them all together!
If you had any idea how pathetic you look on the top of your imaginary moral high horse you would put your head in a bag, dude.


HHDL doesn't want to eat meat, his doctors insist he eat a little for his health. he advocates for vegetarianism and he's chenrezig, after all. the karmapa is telling everyone to try to be vegetarian. if that story about kalu rinpoche is accurate then, no, i don't have much confidence in his reasoning abilities. so what? are we supposed to worship every tibetan in a robe? As far as ChNNR goes, I'm sure he would be more open to a discussion of the issue that you give him credit for. as i said, next time i see him i will try to bring it up.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:04 am

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Your words? Indeed. The cult of vegetarianism.
The parts of your lama's advice that don't agree with your pre-established ideas about diets are thrown away as bullshit. First and foremost: diet! Then Dzogchen and your master. You'll go far with that attitude.


its not a cult its called morality 101: non-killing. you've heard of it perhaps?



Eating meat does not equal killing -- I suggest you review Bhavaviveka's argument on this subject.

N


you mean like swallowing a live goldfish?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:07 am

Mr. G wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
its not a cult its called morality 101: non-killing. you've heard of it perhaps?


The meat eater at a ganapuja is not killing anything.


yeah somebody else did it for him. how convenient. maybe since y'all are such great tan-tricks, maybe you'd like to take on the karma of the butcher while you're at it?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:10 am

gad rgyangs wrote:you mean like swallowing a live goldfish?



That would equal killing, of course. So no, not like that.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:11 am

gad rgyangs wrote:As far as ChNNR goes, I'm sure he would be more open to a discussion of the issue that you give him credit for. as i said, next time i see him i will try to bring it up.


Yeah sure, I would love to see this -- especially after he referred to your kind of vegetarianism as "miserable compassion" during the Tenerife retreat.

Yes, please, try and condition Norbu Rinpoche to your point of view, good luck.

I have heard ChNN extol the virtues of pracititioners eating meat again and again since I first took teachings from him in 1992. I am quite sure you will not dislodge him from his perspective on this.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mr. G » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:12 am

gad rgyangs wrote:maybe since y'all are such great tan-tricks, maybe you'd like to take on the karma of the butcher while you're at it?


Because as you know, Buddhists can't take on other peoples karma.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:30 am

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:As far as ChNNR goes, I'm sure he would be more open to a discussion of the issue that you give him credit for. as i said, next time i see him i will try to bring it up.


Yeah sure, I would love to see this -- especially after he referred to your kind of vegetarianism as "miserable compassion" during the Tenerife retreat.

Yes, please, try and condition Norbu Rinpoche to your point of view, good luck.

I have heard ChNN extol the virtues of pracititioners eating meat again and again since I first took teachings from him in 1992. I am quite sure you will not dislodge him from his perspective on this.


re: "my kind of vegetarianism" as "miserable compassion". i'd love to hear an excursus on that.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:35 am

Mr. G wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:maybe since y'all are such great tan-tricks, maybe you'd like to take on the karma of the butcher while you're at it?


Because as you know, Buddhists can't take on other peoples karma.


darn! does that mean your virtuous meat eating at a ganapuja is only made possible through the evil karma of the butcher? and without him being so evil, you wouldn't have an opportunity to be so virtuous? omg, what would you do if the whole world actually did become vegetarian? you'd either have to give up your virtuous meat eating, or else you might have to.... actually....kill the animal yourself?!? wow, that would be an interesting exercise in authenticity!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:42 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
re: "my kind of vegetarianism" as "miserable compassion". i'd love to hear an excursus on that.


Someday, I am sure you will.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:46 am

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
re: "my kind of vegetarianism" as "miserable compassion". i'd love to hear an excursus on that.


Someday, I am sure you will.


:thumbsup:
i'm ready.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:51 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
re: "my kind of vegetarianism" as "miserable compassion". i'd love to hear an excursus on that.


Someday, I am sure you will.


:thumbsup:
i'm ready.

I don't know about you, but personally I know that I am not responsible for the fact that beings die. If I have a natural desire to eat their meat and it can cause karmic benefit to them because of my practice (specifically mantra that helps cause that connection) then that is just a perfect opportunity arising in my eyes.

I hope that someday you can understand that you cannot stop butchers and other people from killing animals. Even with all the Buddhas and bodhisattvas that exist, it has not been stopped because samsara is governed by certain rules.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:02 am

Virgo wrote:I hope that someday you can understand that you cannot stop butchers and other people from killing animals.


not as long as you keep buying the carcasses for your parties, thats true.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:03 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
re: "my kind of vegetarianism" as "miserable compassion". i'd love to hear an excursus on that.


Someday, I am sure you will.


:thumbsup:
i'm ready.



There are, in breif, two points, arguments ChNN makes, with which I am sure you are familiar:

One, the production of vegetables, grains, fruit and so on is not free from harming creatures, whether organic or conventonally produced. Thus the belief that one is being less harmful to living beings by being a vegetarian is a mistaken delusion.

Second, when a practitioner consume the flesh of animals who have been killed it creates a cause for that animal to meet the teachings. Indeed, it is held that the animal accrues merit because it's body contributes to the well-being of a practitioner. Eschewing such food lacks compassion since no connection is made with said animal.

Therefore, ChNN desribes vegetarianism based on the idea that one is being more compassionate and less harmful to sentient beings as a form of "miserable compassion" -- his words, not mine -- wholly divorced from reality.



N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:05 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Virgo wrote:I hope that someday you can understand that you cannot stop butchers and other people from killing animals.


not as long as you keep buying the carcasses for your parties, thats true.



Whether you buy meat or not, the abbatoirs will still keep churning out carcasses. Not buying meat does not prevent killing.

Buying it does not increase the level of killing. The meat industry has targets set for how many animals they must kill in order to keep meat fresh in markets, and it bears no relationship, at this point economic history, with actual demand in the marketplace. Far more meat is discarded everyday than is purchased from markets.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:06 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Virgo wrote:I hope that someday you can understand that you cannot stop butchers and other people from killing animals.


not as long as you keep buying the carcasses for your parties, thats true.

When I personally stop buying will that drop in volume cause my local grosser to purchase and sell any less meat? The truth is they would continue to purchase and sell the same amount of meat. Losing my business would not cause them to order any less. What is not sold, generally get thrown away, but their order points would not be adjusted over my family purchasing less, I can assure you.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:12 am

Namdrol wrote:There are, in breif, two points, arguments ChNN makes, with which I am sure you are familiar:

One, the production of vegetables, grains, fruit and so on is not free from harming creatures, whether organic or conventonally produced. Thus the belief that one is being less harmful to living beings by being a vegetarian is a mistaken delusion.


this has already been easily defeated on the grounds that there is no intent to kill sentient beings in vegetable farming, indeed the intent can be to try and minimize it as much as possible. On the other hand, the whole point of the exercise in meat eating depends on deliberately killing sentient beings. It is a specious comparison really

Second, when a practitioner consume the flesh of animals who have been killed it creates a cause for that animal to meet the teachings. Indeed, it is held that the animal accrues merit because it's body contributes to the well-being of a practitioner. Eschewing such food lacks compassion since no connection is made with said animal.


so should we encourage butchers to kill animals, otherwise the animal would have no way to accrue merit to eventually meet the teachings? And wouldn't that make the killing itself virtuous, so why not engage in it one's self, and drop this equally specious nonsense about it passing through three hands before you eat it? If, on the other hand, there are other ways for animals to accrue merit, then surely they are better than being murdered.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:14 am

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Virgo wrote:I hope that someday you can understand that you cannot stop butchers and other people from killing animals.


not as long as you keep buying the carcasses for your parties, thats true.



Whether you buy meat or not, the abbatoirs will still keep churning out carcasses. Not buying meat does not prevent killing.

Buying it does not increase the level of killing. The meat industry has targets set for how many animals they must kill in order to keep meat fresh in markets, and it bears no relationship, at this point economic history, with actual demand in the marketplace. Far more meat is discarded everyday than is purchased from markets.


if nobody bought meat, the industry would disappear. be the change you want to see in the world.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:26 am

gad rgyangs wrote:this has already been easily defeated on the grounds that there is no intent to kill sentient beings in vegetable farming



Of course there is: pests-- from rodents to insects. Countless scores of them. In harvesting as well, there is much killing, though this aspect may not be intentional. So even in organic farms there is much death involved with producing the product.

gad rgyangs wrote:so should we encourage butchers to kill animals, otherwise the animal would have no way to accrue merit to eventually meet the teachings?
[/quote][/quote]
Of course not.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:28 am

gad rgyangs wrote:if nobody bought meat, the industry would disappear. be the change you want to see in the world.

Come on gad rgyangs, you know that won't happen.

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