the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:44 pm

Ahh....truth now comes out much to my disconcertation :crying: they be my present teachers in many fashion and form.
I be their student which also to me is very disconcerting...but I have gotton used to it. So my rebirth...it is perhaps quite uncertain, but I may not disregard their teachings no more I may disregard the teachings of the highest lama. So perhaps I threaten low rebirth.....what matter that thing then...no matter to me.

When I may do any profound practice in temple or elsewhere(what I may consider profound)...a bug of one sort or another will appear that needs prevention from being trod upon.....I must then save it there is no option....

ah such is my fate in these things....but i have gotton used to it.

Some in buddhism say those that don't eat meat they smell different. The animals smell the death of meat upon those humans that eat meat and fear it so they fear the human.
So they do not eat meat not to not eat meat but that they will not inadvertantly inspire a fear in a animal they meet.

I don't know. I do know they are my teachers, That I know. They and others. I will not eat my teacher...if I may at all avoid it.
They are so nice to teach me so.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Asabandha » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:04 am

Ryoto wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
Ryoto wrote:I have tried vegetarianism many times and have always failed. Any tips on how to have success for a person with strong cravings for meat?


There are numerous meat substitutes out in the market that have a similar taste and texture, but without any animal or animal products. Veggie burgers, veggie deli slices, seitan, etc. We have served some of the meat substitutes to meat eaters and they couldn't tell the difference, especially the deli slices.


This is some pretty practical advice. I'll give it another shot and see how it goes. Thanks.

Meat cravings subside with time, which is good news. I have three pieces of advice which you may find helpful in your noble effort to abstain from harming sentient life...

1. The first is to supplement your diet with a protein powder that tastes good, one you can consume a lot of. I like AtLargeNutrition's Nitrean (Original, not Plus) for this, although it has egg proteins so I no longer use it. A lot of the craving for meat comes from "protein shock" because diets that contain a lot of meat are very high in protein. I recommend two servings of a 15-20g protein powder a day to start with. You can taper off the protein powder over the course of a year because the body doesn't really need much protein so long as it is accustomed to not having much protein.

2. The second piece of advice is to watch videos of animals suffering in factory farms and reflect on the nature of suffering in the animal realms when cravings for meat arise. These beings desire happiness and do not desire suffering just like us. They experience joy and fear just like us.

3. The third piece of advice is to approach cravings for meat with mindfulness, which means to turn bare awareness on them, not thinking "I crave meat" or "meat is so delicious" but simply awareness that looks deeply into the nature of the craving and sees clearly that it is 1) a transitory/impermanent sensation that is born, grows, decays and dies 2) driven by greed that places self satisfaction above the welfare of other beings 3) driven by aversion to the physical and mental feelings of being without meat, or perhaps just protein.

May you meet with success in this and all your endeavors.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thug4lyfe » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:37 am

I used to like dat protein powder stuff when I was hitting the gym hard!

You should try some of those fake meat at Chinese shops homes! Good as OM NOM NOM!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mr. G » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:30 pm

And now for a brief commercial interruption:

    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:07 pm

Kyosan wrote:
Namdrol wrote:If you use the proper method, and maintain awareness while eating meat, that animal will be reborn as your student when you achieve awakening.

Thanks for answering my question Namdrol. I'm not doubting that you are right about this; there is probably someplace in Buddhist literature that says this. But there must be better ways to start a student/teacher relationship. :lol:


:jumping:

:good:

I think we should ask the cow if she wants to be a "student" especially by literally having to die to be one. Instead of killing her, we could just send our prayers and good will / maitri.

"All beings tremble before danger, all fear death. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill. All beings fear before danger, life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill." Dhammapada, 129-130
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:23 pm

Speaking not for cows as I am not one...but my personal experience is that some of them for one reason or another seem to like having dharma songs sung to them. So perhaps some of them do like to be cow students of a sort. I am not alone in this..in one retreat house years ago I have heard cows would always join in the chanting when they did occur by chanters of mantra.... near to field where they lived. They would run close as they could when the group would appear and moo along.
I strongly suspect however they do not like to be eaten and probably most sad is the thought if it ever occurs to them that their sons and daughters will likewise be killed ahead of their natural time and be eaten..

that would be most sad they are so protective of them.
We are killing and eating ahead of their time cow sons and daughtes as well....how sad :crying:
Are the sons and daughtes then also assured similiar fate of rebirth as students....I suspect not. Maybe but maybe not. Mostly not.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:05 am

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OM NOM NOM!!!!!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:54 am

Namdrol wrote:If you use the proper method, and maintain awareness while eating meat, that animal will be reborn as your student when you achieve awakening.

N


Even if ordinary people use the proper method, I think what you propose here is only really possible for a few individuals on the planet.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:05 pm

My teacher is in India right now but when I see him again I'll ask him the details. I asked him, "didn't whatever used to live in that meat leave a long time ago?" But it seems that there is still some clinging to your body even after it gets cooked and put on a bun.

So, I think there is practice or prayer which wishes that the animal whose body one is eating should be freed from that clinging.
:pig: :pig: :pig: :pig: :pig:
Also, I think there is a practice in which one accepts the body of the deceased as a source of nourishment for the purpose of one's dharma efforts, meaning that one is not establishing any desire or satisfaction from the meat, but since it has been offered, one accepts it without any kind of attraction or aversion, without any conceptualizing or attachment about the giver, the receiver, or the meat being offered, and eats it but dedicates any nourishment one gets from eating the meat for the benefiting of all beings.

But I don't know this for sure. I'll ask, but it won't be for a while.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:17 pm

So..."Also, I think there is a practice in which one accepts the body of the deceased as a source of nourishment for the purpose of one's dharma efforts" this would explain a dream I have had in which I eat the decrepit dead body of my mother, white drained of blood quite grotesque dead a week or so I'd guess......but I would not do or have done that in other than dream...it is so averting.*

Better I would also (if not necessary) not eat dead bodies of animals I may meet or have met...the thing is so grotesque.
Dream of it if I am so inclined...that would be much better. :smile:

*no fear..I thank demons for presenting that and other things in that place I slept that night It being quite so inhabitated. They provide me lessons then of things perhaps they know not what :smile: Dreams of that sort always present in that particular place in the wild. So fear not I am not beset nor bothered nor obsessed by such a thing occuring..it is always in just that place. I use it for that I visit that place.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:54 pm

Huseng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:If you use the proper method, and maintain awareness while eating meat, that animal will be reborn as your student when you achieve awakening.

N


Even if ordinary people use the proper method, I think what you propose here is only really possible for a few individuals on the planet.


It is possible for anyone who has the method -- that is the point of such methods.

N
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thug4lyfe » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:49 pm

I'll just stick to refrain from eating animal flesh so they don't have to be pwnt for my belly.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Kyosan » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:53 pm

I would like to know where in the Buddhist literature it says that, if you eat meat with the right mind, the animal where the meat came from will become your student. I haven't heard of that before. I do know that there are several Buddhist sutras that take a position against eating meat.

To me this idea is outrageous. Young animals life is taken from them without their consent. Then people cut up and eat their bodies. And this is supposed to be doing the animals a favor.

If it is such a great thing, I would expect humans to volunteer to become meals for high Lamas, who they otherwise wouldn't have access to. But are any humans volunteering? I don't think so.

Honestly, I think this is just a rationale for eating animals. If people are going to eat animals, just be honest about the reasons. This reason doesn't pass the laugh test.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thug4lyfe » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:57 pm

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:33 pm

Kyosan wrote:I would like to know where in the Buddhist literature it says that, if you eat meat with the right mind, the animal where the meat came from will become your student.


This is a common teaching in Dzogchen.

It is a method used for those beings who have no opportunity to connect with teachings.

if you are interested, you can listen to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's teachings about this -- he discusses it frequently enough.

N
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Kyosan » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:40 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kyosan wrote:I would like to know where in the Buddhist literature it says that, if you eat meat with the right mind, the animal where the meat came from will become your student.


This is a common teaching in Dzogchen.

It is a method used for those beings who have no opportunity to connect with teachings.

if you are interested, you can listen to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's teachings about this -- he discusses it frequently enough.

N

Thanks Namdrol. Where did he get this idea from? I would like to know where this idea originally came from. I don't think it comes from mainstream Buddhism.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:10 pm

Kyosan wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Kyosan wrote:I would like to know where in the Buddhist literature it says that, if you eat meat with the right mind, the animal where the meat came from will become your student.


This is a common teaching in Dzogchen.

It is a method used for those beings who have no opportunity to connect with teachings.

if you are interested, you can listen to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's teachings about this -- he discusses it frequently enough.

N

Thanks Namdrol. Where did he get this idea from? I would like to know where this idea originally came from. I don't think it comes from mainstream Buddhism.
:namaste:


It is not just ChNN's idea. But in general, it comes from highest yoga tantra.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:53 pm

Tell me, Kyosan. Did the Buddha have wrong conduct? Because you see, he wasn't a vegetarian. It was so simple for him not to eat meat, like the Jains. His cousin even tried to convince him not to eat meat because according to him that was morally superior, only to meet his refusal. Now, I don't know about you, but if the Buddha himself ate meat, as long as he didn't kill or someone killed for him (knowing he was coming, thus killing an animal for his sake), do you think he too was simply using rationalizations to eat meat? Was he flawed or a little stupid? Or was he awake?

Vegetarianism shouldn't be used as a moral high horse. Devadatta tried to pull that one on the Buddha and ended badly. There's a lot of suffering involved in the production of greens and grain too. Some vegetarians seem to forget this. Later, in Mahayanist developments some schools became strong advocates of vegetarianism. That is cool and that's a good diet, especially if there's a good intention behind it. Many Tibetan teachers are vegetarian. Many aren't. Most Theravadins aren't vegetarian. It's a big deal mainly in common Mahayana, I know. However, whatever diet you choose, it won't be because of it that you'll be a better Buddhist if you practice sincerely according to the teachings you received. Just different. Otherwise you're saying you're more wholesome and wise than the Buddha himself. That sounds a bit absurd...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby wisdom » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:44 am

Anyone know in which books ChNN discusses this view? Or any books that discuss this view? I would like to read the metaphysics if you will behind the process, why its believed to work like this and so forth. Or if someone who knows cares to explain it, that will do as well.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:31 am

DN
That may lead some to a mistaken idea. It is certain the Buddha was referencing the ordained in that perscription. One a monk or nun must eat what is given. Such are in no position to deny anything as it is offered for spiritual purpose by a layperson..to help the monk or nun.

That really says not much about regular buddhists. Buddhism is not absolutists to that way of thinking. Certainly in Tibet in historic times meat was the only real viable source of protein and fat was most easily found in yak or other animals milk.
So such a diet makes sense, and how could it be prohibited...we are not absolutists as are jains or theists.
But though thereis no edict and no pure thing in this(it is all circumstantial) does not mean a choice may be made of less harm(if we are in a position to make that choice)...

less harm to sentient being always is being vegetarian(leaving a potential tantric aspect out of it as most of us are not qualified in that regard)
To produce one pound of cows flesh requires seven pounds of grain. So seven times as likely is that more sentient beings were harmed in the harvest of cow as opposed to grain. Most, the vast majority of beef in the west is fed grain.... proportionally very few cattle are free range.

So that is also perhaps leading others to mistake that.

Of course we cannot be absolute about this, and davadeeta that was a example of a absolutist view of things at the time. Jains were a competing philosophy of religion and they do hold absolutely to that. So the example of davadeeta may be used to show a faulted aspect not present in buddhism and thusly to serve as point of differentiation. As at that time a differentiation had to be made...jain or buddhist.
So that served purpose.

No buddhist can state this is a edict which must be obeyed. Our edict is generally to cause less harm if possible. Sometimes it is impossible or not reasonable.

On tantra of course N may give a very informed view. To my opinion this is present in tibetan buddhism has been for centuries and any recent move against eating meat is really quite a new invention. Occasionally in a historic context one finds one doing this thing a teacher but like as not the rule is meat not vegetarian.
Tibet as mentioned was historically not a place conducive to being a vegetarian nor were the peoples demeanor necessarily suited to it.
Padmesambhava did enter into tibet by some recounts on the back of some wildly running tigers.....so the peoples were perhaps not meek mild nor tame....anything but and thusly culturally not amenable to vegetarianism.

We must make this choice individually. There in the west in more harm to not being such that is undeniable. But I can think of many reasons though I advocate strongly for being a vegetarian in which even in the west it is not preferable or possible to do such a thing. .
Buddhism remains a thing of grey in the most not black or white...we must all make our individual decision in this thing...but lets not leave room for untoward interpretations of this thing....generally in the west at least it causes more harm. Amount of harm we cause however is not a absolute as well.

If one did follow tantra and such means perhaps one may ameorialite such harm. I consider myself not advanced enough in things of the spirit to do such things and many such as the karmapa himself do not apparently(except in certain select practices)....so I am not alone in that, with great great company far far beyond my own capeability.
The karmapa now requests kagyu monastic honor vegetarianism if at all possible in their monasteries.
I suspect he may follow some tantric methods.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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