the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Pero » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:Considering it is more severe to kill an Arhat than an ordinary human, more sever to kill one's parents than other people and so on and so on, it is hardly a ridiculous conclusion.


The reason for the five uninterrupted sins has to do with one's liberation. Harming a buddha, killing an arhat, killing one mother, or father and causing a schism in the Sangha are all sins connected with one's own and other's chances for attaining liberation. It has nothing to with the superiority or inferiority of humans in terms of some hierarchy of sentient beings based on intelligence or development. Please note that causing a schism in the Sangha is one of those five sins.


Ah. But how is killing one's mother or father connected with one's own and other's chances for attaining liberation?
And assuming that killing a Buddha and an Arhat is so because you and others can't receive and then apply teachings anymore.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:12 pm

Pero wrote:
Ah. But how is killing one's mother or father connected with one's own and other's chances for attaining liberation?


Your father and mother gave you a precious human birth, your vehicle for liberation.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Pero » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:28 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:
Ah. But how is killing one's mother or father connected with one's own and other's chances for attaining liberation?


Your father and mother gave you a precious human birth, your vehicle for liberation.


"Gave", not "are giving" or "will give"....

?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:27 am

From the article:

Eating a vegan diet can be unhealthy if….

A vegetarian diet can be a healthy one if people avoid certain pitfalls, says registered dietitian Dawn Jackson Blatner, author of The Flexitarian Diet and a blogger at food.usatoday.com. Here are some common mistakes vegetarians make:

•Eating usual meals minus meat. Just opting out of meat will lead to a diet low in protein, iron and zinc, Blatner says. So instead, you need to swap in plant proteins, such as beans and legumes, that can provide the essential nutrients and help keep hunger at bay, she says.

•No-veggie vegetarian. "This mistake is also known as the 'beige diet,' with a focus on dull-colored carbohydrate foods such as bread, pasta, rice." Each meal and snack should have colorful, disease-fighting produce to get optimal health benefits and to keep calories in check, she says.

•Faux-meat fixation. "You know you are guilty of this if you look in your fridge and see too many veggie burgers, 'chicken' nuggets and veggie lunchmeats," she says. These are fine in a pinch, but indulging regularly in these veggie conveniences results in too much processed food that is too high in sodium.

•Vegan health halo. The word "vegan" or "vegetarian" on a package is not a synonym for healthy, Blatner says. Even if a cookie, cake or fries are veggie-friendly, these are still junk foods that should be enjoyed in moderation, she says.

•Cheeseaholic. Some vegetarians rely only on cheese to get protein, eating foods such as cheese sandwiches, cheese on pasta and cheese and crackers for a snack, Blatner says. Overdoing it on cheese ends up being too high in calories and saturated fat, she says.


It is a myth that all vegetarians are healthy. It is actually quite easy to be vegetarian and eat unhealthy, if you do it the wrong way.

I admit to being guilty of doing the "no-veggie vegetarian" diet and "cheesaholic" when I first became a vegetarian 27 years ago. When I told people "I'm a vegetarian who doesn't eat vegetables", no one believed me. Many think that vegetarians only eat grass or other green things. But being a no-veggie vegetarian can really be done; by eating pasta, grains, tofu, faux-meats, and cheese / dairy items. Gradually I learned the importance of making it a healthy vegetarian diet and have moved more towards being vegan. Now my protein, iron, triglycerides, blood pressure, and heart rate are at the best levels and better than most men half my age. (of course, individual results vary and my results do not necessarily extrapolate)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Karma K Sonam » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:21 am

Just to reiterate a point already made (I think) but a little lost. If you are giving up meat for ethical/humane/Buddhist reasons, then unless you know your dairy farmer REALLY well, you should also give up dairy. Putting aside for a moment the suffering the cows experience, there is also the slaughter of bull calves pretty soon after they are born as it is not cost effective to raise them. This practice was pretty endemic in British farming 7 or 8 years ago and whilst it has become less so, it still occurs.

I'm not looking to put anyone off their latte, and I want to say a big congrats to the people that have jumped the meat wagon. I admire you! I eat meat. Having tried FOR YEARS to give the stuff up I get really run down when I go off it. I had a big huge push again when the Karmapa said to stop eating meat - I've been down the whole pulses, lentils, leafy green and multi vit route, but I still came out pasty, mouth ulcery and generally run down. Now I rather feebly regard myself as a meat reducer. I try to eat as little as possible. Strangely, I can do without dairy (I eat eggs cos we have ex battery hens living in our garden).

I really tore myself up over the whole meat issue. Spoke to some people, did some reading and found out that some metabolisms just can't hack it. All you vegans and veggies are just more highly evolved than me, I am stuck in my palaeolithic diet!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Luke » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:47 pm

rory wrote:I'm vegan and visited Budapest last October. It was quite easy being veg there with tons of felafel places & Indian restaurants. You can make your own tofu, it's not that hard or simply cook beans like Indians do.

Try doing the same thing in the small city where I live which is several hours from Budapest in the countryside for several years. The options are far more limited there as Astus described in his previous post.
Astus wrote:Rory,

I presume you've been in Budapest downtown where obviously you find a large variety of restaurants. But even if you just look around outside of that area in the city, you hardly find any place where you can order purely vegetarian food, unless you want to eat only vegetable soup or pasta (although pasta usually contains egg). This is a country where you spread liver-cream on bread (picture) for breakfast. So Luke is indeed not in an easy situation to keep a vegetarian diet.


rory wrote:But I don't think you want to do that, I think you simply want to feel bad about the animals and then happily eat meat.

You are entitled to your opinions. I suppose you could also have the same opinion about my Tibetan lama who also eats meat.

rory wrote: I'm in my 40's, fit, athletic, lean, look in my late 20's (told this all the time) and have low blood pressure, all the benefits. So does my vegan dad at 87!
That is great, but just because one diet is best for some people, it doesn't mean that it is best for others.

Some people feel better physically on vegetarian diets. Some people feel better physically when they eat meat. I personally feel much better when I eat meat and I can finally eat out at restaurants here again. I don't want my whole life to revolve around planning my diet.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:03 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
It is a myth that all vegetarians are healthy.


The healthiest vegetarian cuisine is South Indian cooking. It is the most balanced, the most diverse, strong on rice and bean combinations, easy to digest.

It is not Vegan since no Vedic based diet can be.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Adamantine » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
It is a myth that all vegetarians are healthy.


The healthiest vegetarian cuisine is South Indian cooking. It is the most balanced, the most diverse, strong on rice and bean combinations, easy to digest.

It is not Vegan since no Vedic based diet can be.

N



With all the carbs and dairy though isn't it a bit fattening? I love this food but as I get older and the metabolism slows I need to think about slimming down. Also so many Lamas have diabetes now partially from the Indian white-rice obsession when genetically they are used to whole-grain barely (tsampa).
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:20 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
It is a myth that all vegetarians are healthy.


The healthiest vegetarian cuisine is South Indian cooking. It is the most balanced, the most diverse, strong on rice and bean combinations, easy to digest.

It is not Vegan since no Vedic based diet can be.

N



With all the carbs and dairy though isn't it a bit fattening? I love this food but as I get older and the metabolism slows I need to think about slimming down. Also so many Lamas have diabetes now partially from the Indian white-rice obsession when genetically they are used to whole-grain barely (tsampa).



South Indian food is not necessarily carb heavy. The reason many Tibetans are getting diabetese is because they like the western diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Indian_cuisine

Also, Tibetans ignore their own medical system and eat like crap.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Adamantine » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
South Indian food is not necessarily carb heavy. The reason many Tibetans are getting diabetese is because they like the western diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Indian_cuisine

Also, Tibetans ignore their own medical system and eat like crap.

N



I know south Indian food well, I have eaten it in India as well as regularly in NYC, being a vegetarian it is probably the tastiest veggie cuisine there is. However, between potatoes, basmati rice and various lentil dumplings, pancakes, and crepes it does seem carb heavy unless you are eating fish.. also ghee and coconut are not exactly fat-free.. anyway i love it but it's not easy or fast to cook either. I generally prepare a south-indian inspired dahl with rice at home, or a kitchari with veggies mixed-- along with a subji with different variations of veggies. It never feels complete without the dahl and rice though, and some yogurt.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:01 pm

Adamantine wrote:

I know south Indian food well, I have eaten it in India as well as regularly in NYC, being a vegetarian it is probably the tastiest veggie cuisine there is. However, between potatoes, basmati rice and various lentil dumplings, pancakes, and crepes


The crepes are fermented lentils and rice, 50/50.

Anyway, there is plenty of protein in that diet for most people.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mudra » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:28 pm

Namdrol wrote:

South Indian food is not necessarily carb heavy. The reason many Tibetans are getting diabetese is because they like the western diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Indian_cuisine

Also, Tibetans ignore their own medical system and eat like crap.

N


This is true.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:38 pm

Raw plant foods only is an excellent support for dharma practice.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:17 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Raw plant foods only is an excellent support for dharma practice.



This diet is not good for Dharma practice since it is bad for one's health, from a Tibetan Medical POV.

Virtually all plant foods need to be cooked before eaten, or eaten with digestive enhancements like vinegar and oil, as in a salad.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Raw plant foods only is an excellent support for dharma practice.



This diet is not good for Dharma practice since it is bad for one's health, from a Tibetan Medical POV.

Virtually all plant foods need to be cooked before eaten, or eaten with digestive enhancements like vinegar and oil, as in a salad.

N


With respect to you and your profession, I feel Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine have their strengths and weaknesses. I have tried diets recommended by these modalities and have not had good results. I have some training in this area and the use of various natural substances supplements a raw diet well. Raw diet, however, has not been bad for my health. Raw diet also allows the use of oily fruits like nuts and avacados which aid in the absorption of the nutrients. Also blended smoothies are very easy to absorb.

Since I've gone raw only my energy level is much greater than ever before. I do 5-10 mile brisk walks daily. My mind has become very peaceful. My body feels very light, and my channels have become more supple and clear. I have felt so much better than I've ever felt in my life, and that alone is reason for me to continue. The best evidence for me is how much my practice has improved.

Therefore, the view that it is not good for dharma practice is incorrect in my experience. I can accept that TM has its own POV, and that is fine. But I am not limited to that modality if in my own stream of being, another truth is obvious. Even if someone were to replace one meal with a green smoothie (you can find ample recipes on google), you will instantly notice the energy boost, and the energy is sustained over a long period of the day where you don't have cravings or blood sugar dips. I have been drinking green smoothies and eating greens, fruits, nuts and seeds for long enough to attribute strong confidence to my account.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:35 pm

deepbluehum wrote:...I have been drinking green smoothies and eating greens, fruits, nuts and seeds for long enough to attribute strong confidence to my account.


I predict you will have a variety of vata disorders before too long, with all due respect.

N
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:37 pm

I will throw in a good recipe for fun:

Two cups coconut water with pulp
Two tablespoons of raw organic cacao powder
One teaspoon of organic cayanne
Two tablespoons of raw honey
The flesh of 1/2
1/2 cup of cashews or almonds
[optional] 1 square inch of ginger

Blend on high for 5 minutes until liquified.

This is extremely delicious

You can perhaps pour off have of this can drink for taste, then add in about 1/2 pound of leafy greens like kale and spinach, then blend for another five minutes until liquified.

This is an energy boost and can replace coffee and tea.

The smoothie world is fun to explore.

Fight for your right to blend.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:...I have been drinking green smoothies and eating greens, fruits, nuts and seeds for long enough to attribute strong confidence to my account.


I predict you will have a variety of vata disorders before too long, with all due respect.

N


It would have happened by now. Besides, I don't need cooked foods to fix a vata disorder. Raw organic cumin, cayanne, ginger and other hot plants will do.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:57 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:...I have been drinking green smoothies and eating greens, fruits, nuts and seeds for long enough to attribute strong confidence to my account.


I predict you will have a variety of vata disorders before too long, with all due respect.

N


It would have happened by now. Besides, I don't need cooked foods to fix a vata disorder. Raw organic cumin, cayanne, ginger and other hot plants will do.


It's not that simple. I wish it were.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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