the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Lindama » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:28 pm

As far as health goes, a grain based diet and a meat based diet are equally problematic... grain based may be even less desirable than beef by a mile.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:32 pm

And anyway is problematic if no one chooses to follow it...and the majority do choose not to..
The number of shoppers who go into the supermarket thinking about how many people could be fed by grain instead of beef is vanishingly small. And that is unlikely to change.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby porpoise » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:29 pm

Simon E. wrote:The number of shoppers who go into the supermarket thinking about how many people could be fed by grain instead of beef is vanishingly small.


I have the impression that people are eating less meat than they used to, partly due to health concerns. I've noticed that the range of non-meat products in supermarkets is increasing, presumably driven by demand.
But it comes back to personal choice. Why add to the demand for meat and therefore to the suffering of animals when we have other options?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby porpoise » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:30 pm

Lindama wrote:As far as health goes, a grain based diet and a meat based diet are equally problematic... .


Ever heard of mad-cow disease, bird-flu, salmonella, etc etc?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:40 pm

porpoise wrote:
Simon E. wrote:The number of shoppers who go into the supermarket thinking about how many people could be fed by grain instead of beef is vanishingly small.


I have the impression that people are eating less meat than they used to, partly due to health concerns. I've noticed that the range of non-meat products in supermarkets is increasing, presumably driven by demand.
But it comes back to personal choice. Why add to the demand for meat and therefore to the suffering of animals when we have other options?

You might draw that conclusion. I might agree in part. I cannot speak for other countries but here in the UK literally millions of turkeys, and tens of thousands of geese are about to be killed for Christmas lunch. The number sold each year is actually growing.
The number of UK citizens who will sit down to a vegetarian lunch on the 25 December is a tiny tiny minority, and is shrinking.
Vegetarianism peaked about 10 years ago in the UK, and is now retreating.
I may decide to eschew flesh, but it will make no difference to the vast majority.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby porpoise » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:53 pm

Simon E. wrote: The number of UK citizens who will sit down to a vegetarian lunch on the 25 December is a tiny tiny minority, and is shrinking.


In that case I will free all the turkeys and distribute quorn fillets. :jumping:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:37 am

The stomach-churning reason why meat is so cheap:
http://www.salon.com/2013/12/10/the_sto ... _so_cheap/
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:33 pm

The impressions given on this link are non-representative of the average circumstance of farm animals. Worked on dary, owned and operated small farms, kept cows, pigs, chickens. No other way to say. This just militant vegetarian propaganda, as is the implied view that farmers don't love their animals.
650,000 copies of a book promoting beating children starting with willow branches at age 1 (!) and progressing to belts, were sold in the US. Shocking! So does this imply that this is how children are raised generally? I don't think so.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:22 pm

Just noticed this:
http://www.amazon.com/Should-Evolution- ... 1118278720
and it looks like it should be worth reading.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dharmagoat » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:55 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:The impressions given on this link are non-representative of the average circumstance of farm animals. Worked on dary, owned and operated small farms, kept cows, pigs, chickens. No other way to say. This just militant vegetarian propaganda, as is the implied view that farmers don't love their animals.

Seriously, if farmers loved their animals, they wouldn't have them slaughtered. What kind of love would allow that?

If someone 'loved' you in that way, would you feel loved?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby duckfiasco » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:47 am

In my line of work relating to TV broadcasting and news, when there are stories about the meat industry and animals, they're often referred to as though they were plants: "growing" chickens, "harvesting" cows. It sounds very strange.
Please take the above post with a grain of salt.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:03 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:The impressions given on this link are non-representative of the average circumstance of farm animals. Worked on dary, owned and operated small farms, kept cows, pigs, chickens. No other way to say. This just militant vegetarian propaganda, as is the implied view that farmers don't love their animals.
650,000 copies of a book promoting beating children starting with willow branches at age 1 (!) and progressing to belts, were sold in the US. Shocking! So does this imply that this is how children are raised generally? I don't think so.


It's not just a coincidence that horrible animal abuse has been found every single time the human society has done an undercover investigation. Animal abuse is the norm, not the exception. The idea that farmers are generally nice to animals is just meat industry propaganda.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Simon E. » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:07 pm

The idea that there is a pan-Buddhist view of various issues, including diet and sexuality, is Sino-Buddhist propaganda.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:12 pm

The idea that it's ok for someone to chop a cows head off, is anti-buddhist propaganda.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Simon E. » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:23 pm

Buddhists do not need to.
The world is littered with corpses of cows who have had their heads chopped off by the vast majority of the world's population who have no interest in Buddhism at all...that is not going to change , whatever you have for lunch.
Its pissing in the ocean.
By all means choose to eat whatever you feel right.
But don't kid yourself it will make any difference.
And don't think you are speaking for anything other than a particular Buddhist group.
Whose condemnation of meat eaters is only equalled by their condemnation of gay sex.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:30 pm

That a news agency which gets paid for higher ratings always finds a sensational story is somehow less than surprising. That you Don't hear about the times when they find nothing should be obvious. Believe what you want to believe. You militants don't seem to worry about the possibility of creating a schism when you condemn other Buddhists. That's so typical of ideologues. The concept of brotherhood and a middle way seems far from your thinking. Look into your heart at the anger and self righteousness there. Take care of that, then we can have a rational discussion.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:38 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:That you Don't hear about the times when they find nothing should be obvious.


Unfortunately, that situation has yet to occur.

Simon E. wrote:at all...that is not going to change.
Its pissing in the ocean.
By all means choose to eat whatever you feel right.
But don't kid yourself it will make any difference.


Same could be said of feeding homeless people.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Simon E. » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:41 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:That a news agency which gets paid for higher ratings always finds a sensational story is somehow less than surprising. That you Don't hear about the times when they find nothing should be obvious. Believe what you want to believe. You militants don't seem to worry about the possibility of creating a schism when you condemn other Buddhists. That's so typical of ideologues. The concept of brotherhood and a middle way seems far from your thinking. Look into your heart at the anger and self righteousness there. Take care of that, then we can have a rational discussion.

You are of course correct at all points Jigme Tsultrim..But there will always be problems in holding true dialogue with what the late Bernard Levin called a ' S.I.F.'...a single issue fanatic.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:43 pm

Simon E. wrote: with what the late Bernard Levin called a ' S.I.F.'...a single issue fanatic.


Strawman + ad hominem.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Simon E. » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:45 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Jigme Tsultrim wrote:That you Don't hear about the times when they find nothing should be obvious.


Unfortunately, that situation has yet to occur.

Simon E. wrote:at all...that is not going to change.
Its pissing in the ocean.
By all means choose to eat whatever you feel right.
But don't kid yourself it will make any difference.


Same could be said of feeding homeless people.

It could..and its true. There is no possibility that the world is going to run out of homeless people..or cuts of beef.
The difference is that no one is suggesting that Buddhism is predicated on the feeding or not feeding of homeless people.
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