the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:10 pm

OK thanks, I will check those out. What's your take on the Hui Neng story?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:12 pm

Enjoying your blog posts Indrajala.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2128
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:26 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:OK thanks, I will check those out. What's your take on the Hui Neng story?


Yes, it is part of the Platform Sūtra:

    “After this I went to Caoqi. There too I was beset by evil people searching for me and so fled to Sihui [Xian], where I spent fifteen years in all [living] with a group of hunters. During this time I preached the Dharma to the hunters when the occasion arose. The hunters had always had me guard their nets, but whenever I saw living animals in them I set them free. Whenever it was mealtime, I put vegetables in the pot for boiling the meat. They asked me about this sometimes, and I would answer, ‘These are just vegetables to go with the meat.’"


See page 26:

http://www.bdkamerica.org/digital/dBET_ ... a_2000.pdf

Living with hunters is not sinful provided one does not participate in the acts, which is how Huineng behaved.

Actually as an advanced Buddhist practitioner, you probably should live amongst disagreeable types. That's what Vimalakīrti did. He went to the casinos and other disreputable places.

Fish don't thrive in clear water, as they saying goes.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5552
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:32 pm

Interesting. He didn't try to convince them to give up hunting?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:36 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Interesting. He didn't try to convince them to give up hunting?


By his own admission, he taught them the Dharma when appropriate. I imagine that would have included teachings on right livelihood, of which hunting is not one.

By the Tang Dynasty, meat eating was taboo in Chinese Buddhism. As is the case today, part of the Buddhadharma in Chinese Buddhism includes vegetarianism. Meat eating is regarded as expressly sinful and discouraged. If you're a Chinese monk or nun, you are vegetarian by default.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5552
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:44 pm

Indrajala wrote:By the Tang Dynasty, meat eating was taboo in Chinese Buddhism.

Before then it wasn't?
Indrajala wrote:As is the case today, part of the Buddhadharma in Chinese Buddhism includes vegetarianism. Meat eating is regarded as expressly sinful and discouraged.

I've often wondered if the strong emphasis on vegetarianism one sees in Chinese Buddhism has something to do with the Chinese people's great admiration for asceticism.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:49 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:I've often wondered if the strong emphasis on vegetarianism one sees in Chinese Buddhism has something to do with the Chinese people's great admiration for asceticism.
Why would being vegetarian be a a form of asceticism?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7869
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:53 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Before then it wasn't?


In the 6th century Emperor Liangwu 梁武帝 (r. 502–549) officially banned meat eating in the sangha, much to the protest of some elements of the Chinese sangha at the time which advocated the Vinaya position where meat eating is permitted provided the animal was not seen, heard of or suspected of having been expressly slaughtered for the sangha's consumption. However, with the spread of bodhisattva literature, it became widely believed that meat eating was sinful and that Buddhists, especially the monks, should not eat meat.

I have reason to believe meat eating still happened behind closed doors in Chinese monasteries throughout the Tang amongst sordid activities like slave trading, though the widespread conception was that monks are vegetarian.



I've often wondered if the strong emphasis on vegetarianism one sees in Chinese Buddhism has something to do with the Chinese people's great admiration for asceticism.


It mostly stems from the Mahāyāna literature which expressly forbids bodhisattvas from consuming meat. The Tibetans inherited some of the same literature, but seldom took it seriously.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5552
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:54 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Why would being vegetarian be a a form of asceticism?


Eating Chinese vegetarian food (no garlic or onions) continually is a form of asceticism. :roll:
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5552
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:57 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Why would being vegetarian be a a form of asceticism?

I'm not saying it is, necessarily, but I believe the Chinese have always thought very highly of meat, from both the points of view of health and pleasure, so giving it up would indeed seem like a form of asceticism to many Chinese people, at least from my experience with the culture and what I have read. Of course, I am not an expert so I could be wrong.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:08 pm

seeker242 wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Do you think everything in the Shurangama Sutra is literally true?

The part where it talks about eating meat, I don't think that is a metaphor no.

seeker242 wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Which part where it talks about eating meat are you referring to?

The parts where the word "meat" appears. :smile:

Jikan wrote:here's a place to start:
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Sh ... uotes.html
"You should know that these people who eat meat may gain some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all great rakshasas...

So, seeker242, you think that people who eat meat are great rakshasas, correct?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:43 pm

When I was a vegetarian, I met a cannibal at a writers convention.
He was an authoritarian.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:23 am


At the end of the second post you mention that you would discuss the matter of eggs and dairy in the future.
Did you ever get around to that?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:56 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Do you think everything in the Shurangama Sutra is literally true?

The part where it talks about eating meat, I don't think that is a metaphor no.

seeker242 wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Which part where it talks about eating meat are you referring to?

The parts where the word "meat" appears. :smile:

Jikan wrote:here's a place to start:
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Sh ... uotes.html
"You should know that these people who eat meat may gain some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all great rakshasas...

So, seeker242, you think that people who eat meat are great rakshasas, correct?


What would make you think that? :shrug:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
User avatar
seeker242
 
Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:18 pm

seeker242 wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:So, seeker242, you think that people who eat meat are great rakshasas, correct?

What would make you think that? :shrug:

:roll:
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby gad rgyangs » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:25 pm

more like pretas actually
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
User avatar
gad rgyangs
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jikan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:11 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:When I was a vegetarian, I met a cannibal at a writers convention.
He was an authoritarian.
.
.
.


OK, you got me.

:rolling:
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4275
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:34 am

An interesting article concerning the truth about avacados:

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/the-horrifying-truth-about-avocados.html

This really goes to show that we have no idea how much suffering and death (of animals, insects, and potentially even humans) goes into the production of every single fruit, vegetable, or grain of rice, etc that we eat.

Kevin
User avatar
Virgo
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Globe

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:43 am

Tried being a vegetarian once. It only lasted two days.
User avatar
Nighthawk
 
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:21 am

Nighthawk wrote:Tried being a vegetarian once. It only lasted two days.

I tried once, it lasted 16 years.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Anders, smcj, theanarchist and 17 guests

>