Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

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Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby benchen » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:24 pm

Did Sakyamuni Buddha ever mentioned in his 49 years of teaching a bodhisattva or a future bodhisattva name Guru Rinpoche ??

Both of them attained enlightenmemt differently , one of them through consort practice .

Followers of Guru Rinpoche and followers of Buddha do different practices.

Do they contradict each other ?
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:21 pm

I may not be a Buddhist, know not either, am certainly no historian nor scholor, but as there are no replies I will venture one...

no. I don't find they do, in even the slightest respect.

If you find they do you must show me they do. I Await your reply but probably will not reply to that but leave others to do so.....as I am no debator as well.
For what that is worth, which like they say about war, is good for probably....absolutely nothing.

If the question is simply a question..no.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:31 am

benchen wrote:Did Sakyamuni Buddha ever mentioned in his 49 years of teaching a bodhisattva or a future bodhisattva name Guru Rinpoche ??

Both of them attained enlightenmemt differently , one of them through consort practice .

Followers of Guru Rinpoche and followers of Buddha do different practices.

Do they contradict each other ?



If you read Guru Rimpoche's works like the ones that are in the Dakini Teachings, it is clear that He discusses and explains Buddhism!! And that He considers Himself to be a buddhist!!
He also discusses and explains the 10 precepts, he explains the meaning of Karma, the meaning of Taking Refuge in the Three Jewels, the Bodhisattava vow, etc... Your question is highly unnecessary.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby benchen » Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:02 pm

Aemilius :

read questions carefully.

Your answers are irrelevent to my questions.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby ronnewmexico » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:58 pm

Perhaps I will add my 2 cents in one regard but not to debate but perhaps add a bit of explaination...

Enlightened being are considered to speak in differing fashion to differing audiences. If for instance you can correctly surmise what individuals and thusly groups of peoples are thinking in fashions by being completely aware of things, you may craft your communication to them for their best benefit.

However the result of that circumstance, your crafting to best benefit, may indeed mean your communication apppears in conflict with communications crafted to best benefit for others. Their circumstance is different, the communication to them is thusly different, and if recorded in some fashion and replayed it is replayed not to the circumstance in which it was offered and totally and correction 100 percent appropriate but in another circumstance and context in which it may appear contradictory or inappropriate. So the error is in the retelling. Enlightened beings generally seemingly make no errors.

WE perhaps get into trouble if we consider ourselves enlightened beings and start telling people different things at different times, thinking that is best for them.... and they get together and compare and come to the conclusion that we are just lying and are a liar(which is why the Buddha generally said to not lie). They are quite right in their appraisal as we being not enlightened generally should do no such thing.

It is a great egotism to think we are enlightened when we are not or that we can compare our circumtance to that of the enlightened ones. Generally we should just say what we know to be true at all times. WE cannot read peoples and their circumstances as enlightened ones may....that would be a great error. That we know much more than them or are significantly more advanced in very many spiritual ways, perhaps, that does not mean for a singular instant that we can read their circumstance and thusly their thoughts and know what is best for them to hear. That way of doing things is a very very common one to my observation. Generally leave the telling different things to different peoples at different times to the enlightened ones. Otherwise we come accross as having a lying problem and nothing else. The error is confusing our spiritual advancement with being enlightened. They are two way way different states to my view. That is just a aside comment but I see it done continually. It is a egoism, nothing else and helps noone/genereally. It help people to think we are a liar or a lying pack of fools for the most part.


So the first part explains who there may be contradictions and be saying the same thing in the context of the portrayal. Which I explain but quite probably inadequately.
Nevertheless....there to my study, is absolutely finally none, not a singular contradiction in what those two beings said. I expound on the other but the question is answered.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby kirtu » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:50 am

benchen wrote:Did Sakyamuni Buddha ever mentioned in his 49 years of teaching a bodhisattva or a future bodhisattva name Guru Rinpoche ??


Tibetans claim so.

Both of them attained enlightenmemt differently , one of them through consort practice .


Tibetan Buddhists claim that Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment also through consort practice in a previous life, took birth in Tushita, waited for the right time and manifested a sutric nirmanakaya birth. Shakyamuni did not *primarily* teach tantra and left that mostly to GR (who is said to also be an emanation of Shakyamuni).

Consort practice is a distraction for us. The main thing is just like in Theravada: practice virtue, abandon non-virtue, purify the mind. It's just that the methods (the details) are different. Consort practice is for very high bodhisattvas.

Followers of Guru Rinpoche and followers of Buddha do different practices.


No, GR taught Buddhism and followers of the Tibetan Vajrayana (followers of GR) do the same practices as the "followers of Buddha" (presumably this means sutric practicioners sine you have proposed this dichotomy). However the sutric practitioners do not practice tantra and certainly not inner tantra.

Do they contradict each other ?


No. But Shakyamuni Buddha primarily taught non-tantric methods. GR primarily taught tantric methods.

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:29 am

benchen wrote:Aemilius :

read questions carefully.

Your answers are irrelevent to my questions.



As I have understood it from various biographies of Guru Rimpoche He spent over thousand years doing different practices under different teachers in different countries. During that time He practiced an Amitayus Yoga with a consort, through this pracice He attained immortality! It does not say "enlightenment". During His more that 1500 years of practice he had time and opportunity to do many different things for different purposes ! Buddha dharma is vast, it includes things like Avatamsaka sutra, and other mahayana sutras, the five paths and ten stages of a bodhisattva, plus the teachings that are in the tantras.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:21 am

kirtu wrote:
benchen wrote:Did Sakyamuni Buddha ever mentioned in his 49 years of teaching a bodhisattva or a future bodhisattva name Guru Rinpoche ??


Tibetans claim so.

Both of them attained enlightenmemt differently , one of them through consort practice .


Tibetan Buddhists claim that Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment also through consort practice in a previous life, took birth in Tushita, waited for the right time and manifested a sutric nirmanakaya birth. Shakyamuni did not *primarily* teach tantra and left that mostly to GR (who is said to also be an emanation of Shakyamuni).

Consort practice is a distraction for us. The main thing is just like in Theravada: practice virtue, abandon non-virtue, purify the mind. It's just that the methods (the details) are different. Consort practice is for very high bodhisattvas.

Followers of Guru Rinpoche and followers of Buddha do different practices.


No, GR taught Buddhism and followers of the Tibetan Vajrayana (followers of GR) do the same practices as the "followers of Buddha" (presumably this means sutric practicioners sine you have proposed this dichotomy). However the sutric practitioners do not practice tantra and certainly not inner tantra.

Do they contradict each other ?


No. But Shakyamuni Buddha primarily taught non-tantric methods. GR primarily taught tantric methods.

Kirt



In the Hinayana you have the four dhyanas and four formless dhyanas. But in Mahayana there are hundreds of diffrent samadhis, there are even names for over hundred different samadhis. Different samadhis are described in the Lotus sutra, in the Avatamsaka sutra, in Lankavatara sutra, in Surangamasmadhi sutra and so on... What you call "sutric" seems to imply only the dhyanas of the Hinayana.
Many things that these days are called "tantric" are truly included in the samadhis of the Mahayana.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:09 pm

benchen wrote:Did Sakyamuni Buddha ever mentioned in his 49 years of teaching a bodhisattva or a future bodhisattva name Guru Rinpoche ??

Both of them attained enlightenmemt differently , one of them through consort practice .

Followers of Guru Rinpoche and followers of Buddha do different practices.

Do they contradict each other ?


For one possible answer see Fables of Buddha 3. in the section Dharma Stories.
The story is from the Lotus sutra, and it could be seen as the promise of Shakyamuni returning as a new, fully grown Nirmanakaya some time after His parinirvana, which would then be like Guru Padmasambhava!?

Before, in 1970's and 1980's, in the books of Dharma Publishing (of Tarthang Tulku & co) it used to be 7 years, or 9 years, or 14 years, after the Parinirvana of Shakyamuni that He would appear again as an other figure or an other form, ( I'm sure I have seen all the three different numbers of years in different books), and the prophecy should also be in the Samadhiraja sutra.
I haven't seen it in the Charles Patton's partial translation of Great Parinirvana sutra, and I haven't read all of Yamamoto's translation of it. So I can't say, but the number of years between seems to have increased littlebit?
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:17 pm

About consort practice

Prince Siddhartha had 20 000 women as consorts or playthings etc.. in four different palaces. As you must know the effects of sex don't disappear very quickly at all. So we could very well say that Buddha Gautama attained enlightenment in a tantric manner based on His having enjoyed some 20 000 consorts, wives and concubines in His youth !!!
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby kirtu » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:24 pm

Aemilius wrote:
kirtu wrote:
benchen wrote:Did Sakyamuni Buddha ever mentioned in his 49 years of teaching a bodhisattva or a future bodhisattva name Guru Rinpoche ??


Tibetans claim so.

Both of them attained enlightenmemt differently , one of them through consort practice .


Tibetan Buddhists claim that Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment also through consort practice in a previous life, took birth in Tushita, waited for the right time and manifested a sutric nirmanakaya birth. Shakyamuni did not *primarily* teach tantra and left that mostly to GR (who is said to also be an emanation of Shakyamuni).

Consort practice is a distraction for us. The main thing is just like in Theravada: practice virtue, abandon non-virtue, purify the mind. It's just that the methods (the details) are different. Consort practice is for very high bodhisattvas.

Followers of Guru Rinpoche and followers of Buddha do different practices.


No, GR taught Buddhism and followers of the Tibetan Vajrayana (followers of GR) do the same practices as the "followers of Buddha" (presumably this means sutric practicioners sine you have proposed this dichotomy). However the sutric practitioners do not practice tantra and certainly not inner tantra.

Do they contradict each other ?


No. But Shakyamuni Buddha primarily taught non-tantric methods. GR primarily taught tantric methods.

Kirt



In the Hinayana you have the four dhyanas and four formless dhyanas. But in Mahayana there are hundreds of diffrent samadhis, there are even names for over hundred different samadhis. Different samadhis are described in the Lotus sutra, in the Avatamsaka sutra, in Lankavatara sutra, in Surangamasmadhi sutra and so on... What you call "sutric" seems to imply only the dhyanas of the Hinayana.
Many things that these days are called "tantric" are truly included in the samadhis of the Mahayana.


No I mean both Hinayana and common Mahayana when I say sutric. And by common Mahayana I mean non-tantic Mahayana - non-Vajrayana - nothing from kriya yoga on up.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby kirtu » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:27 pm

Aemilius wrote:About consort practice

Prince Siddhartha had 20 000 women as consorts or playthings etc.. in four different palaces. As you must know the effects of sex don't disappear very quickly at all. So we could very well say that Buddha Gautama attained enlightenment in a tantric manner based on His having enjoyed some 20 000 consorts, wives and concubines in His youth !!!


Except he didn't. He took birth to demonstrate enlightenment mostly as a Sravaka teacher. Are there any stories about Shakyamuni practicing tantra as a youth? I would strongly doubt it (I haven't heard of them but ...).

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby benchen » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:05 am

Aemilius

You have been doing a lot of reading of buddhist stories and buddhist materials by layman authors ( mostly westerners if you are reading English materials) that may not have themselves understood the true and profound buddhist teachings.

It is dangerous , especially in this internet age , where most of the information
found on the net are garbage.

Try to get information from fully ordained respected high lamas and you will be safer
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:56 am

benchen wrote:Aemilius

You have been doing a lot of reading of buddhist stories and buddhist materials by layman authors ( mostly westerners if you are reading English materials) that may not have themselves understood the true and profound buddhist teachings.

It is dangerous , especially in this internet age , where most of the information
found on the net are garbage.

Try to get information from fully ordained respected high lamas and you will be safer


What you are saying is something I could have expected, and it is totally wrong !!
Tarthang Tulku is what you call a high Lama. He was a pioneering Lama of the whole modern Nyingma.Then after him there gradually came numerous tibetans who all give profound teachings but they always had to put down the pioneering work of Tarthang Tulku, in every possible way. Maybe that is normal human behaviour, but then the other and later coming Lamas have indeed proved themselves to be very human and very ordinary.
What I said about Guru Rimpoche is based on the time period before the internett, and I don't wish start enumerating all the lamas and real living buddhists I have known and met in my life. I hope you can maintain some level of source criticism in your study and practice of the Dharma, which naturally is quite impossible, there are many political aspects in the Dharma right now, which makes that dharma teachers are tightly bound hand and feet because of the political samayas they have. Which makes that everything that real, fully ordained or not, people say is tainted.
Probably that is just the normal course the history always runs and I'm just too old for this stuff.
with best wishes !!
Last edited by Aemilius on Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:01 am

kirtu wrote:
Aemilius wrote:About consort practice

Prince Siddhartha had 20 000 women as consorts or playthings etc.. in four different palaces. As you must know the effects of sex don't disappear very quickly at all. So we could very well say that Buddha Gautama attained enlightenment in a tantric manner based on His having enjoyed some 20 000 consorts, wives and concubines in His youth !!!


Except he didn't. He took birth to demonstrate enlightenment mostly as a Sravaka teacher. Are there any stories about Shakyamuni practicing tantra as a youth? I would strongly doubt it (I haven't heard of them but ...).

Kirt


For example Edward Conze has put forward the idea that buddhist history is only about the shifting of the line between exoteric teachings or common teachings and the esoteric teachings. Which means to say that mahayana and tantra existed from the very beginning, then in the course of centuries gradually more and more teachings became public and not esoteric or secret anymore. There were sections of the Sangha that vehemently opposed this, and therefore the various schools of the Shravakayana arose.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby kirtu » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:22 pm

Aemilius wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Aemilius wrote:About consort practice

Prince Siddhartha had 20 000 women as consorts or playthings etc.. in four different palaces. As you must know the effects of sex don't disappear very quickly at all. So we could very well say that Buddha Gautama attained enlightenment in a tantric manner based on His having enjoyed some 20 000 consorts, wives and concubines in His youth !!!


Except he didn't. He took birth to demonstrate enlightenment mostly as a Sravaka teacher. Are there any stories about Shakyamuni practicing tantra as a youth? I would strongly doubt it (I haven't heard of them but ...).

Kirt


For example Edward Conze has put forward the idea that buddhist history is only about the shifting of the line between exoteric teachings or common teachings and the esoteric teachings. Which means to say that mahayana and tantra existed from the very beginning, then in the course of centuries gradually more and more teachings became public and not esoteric or secret anymore. There were sections of the Sangha that vehemently opposed this, and therefore the various schools of the Shravakayana arose.


I don't often think that Conze gets things right but this is more or less true and in fact is consistent with various presentations of the development of the sangha (unfortunately some Buddhist presentations are themselves flawed but I think this is more because of translation difficulties along with a generally cursory presentation of the subject[for example, the various traditions effectively arose in the Tibetan view because of degradations in the presentation of the teaching and because of schisms in the sangha - this is not necessarily wrong but it raises some questions]).

From the common Mahayana perspective it is clear that the Shravaka teachings and the Bodhisattva teachings were given by Shakyamuni Buddha at the same time. Then from the uncommon Mahayana (Vajrayana) it is clear that Shakyamuni did not teach much tantra to humans although he taught some (primarily to King Indrabodhi) but he did apparently teach tantra to gods.
But still the primary task of bringing tantra to humans was Guru Rinpoche's task.

This is considered to be literal history esp. with the Nyingma.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby Aemilius » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:14 am

It has been taught that the Dharma comprises: Shila, Samadhi and Prajna, And that this was the essence of teaching on Shakyamuni's last teaching tour (before entering Parinirvana).
Shravakayana, tantra and mahayana are different sets of precepts and different samadhis and the realization of truth, or seeing into the reality of things. How do they differ ? State of samadhi and realization of truth are inner states, disciples around don't necessarily see them at all. But they constantly make their own interpretations, and their followers make more interpretations, and so on... Then if there again is someone who attains samadhi and sees the truth, he will realize that in fact the truth is far removed from everything that is accepted by venerable persons! But he has to communicate with them somehow! And try to use whatever verbal teachings there are at his time. Some will accept it and some do not, some understand it but some reject it as heresy! Thus there arise various schools and various traditions.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby benchen » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:08 pm

Aemilius

The western authors of the buddhist materials you have read are second hand informers.

you must get information from first hand - the source

But unfortunately if you can only read English , you will mostly get from those
authors , many are not qualified teachers.

Many info they wrote are garbage.

something like this - you go to a western guy for indian astrology. you should go directly to a indian guy for indian astrology instead.

Hope this will help .
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby kirtu » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:34 pm

benchen wrote:The western authors of the buddhist materials you have read are second hand informers.


Benchen - you are assuming that people are getting Buddhist materials from western authors. Why are you assuming that?

you must get information from first hand - the source

But unfortunately if you can only read English , you will mostly get from those
authors , many are not qualified teachers.

Many info they wrote are garbage.


You are also assuming that sources in English are garbage (or many of them are). So for example, are you claiming that works by HH Sakya Trizen in English are garbage? Translated teachings from HH Penor Rinpoche? Translated or transcribed teachings from HH Dalai Lama? Many other lamas and teachers also teach in English and other western languages and oversee translations. These are also garbage? How about the works of Chan Master Sheng Yen? Garbage too?

Mee thinks you are painting with too broad a brush.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Guru Rinpoche and Sakyamuni

Postby benchen » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:06 pm

Hello again

You have misunderstood my meaning.

I do not mean translation work done by western authors of original teachings of great
masters.

Many books written by western authors are based on their own views/ own teaching
after following a lama for sometime. Many info are incorrect .

Again i repeat here , learn from the source. Not 2nd hand re-productions garbage.
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