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To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Yes
36
58%
No
20
32%
Not Sure
6
10%
 
Total votes: 62

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:19 am

- Peter


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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:20 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:25 am

The "don't know" taught by the Buddha is this: I don't know if the teachings are true or false. I do not know if they lead where they say they lead. I will put them into practice and see for myself if they are true, if they lead where they say they lead.

The specific teaching in question in this thread is: The way to the ending of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path. Right View is part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Kamma and rebirth are part of Right View.

And so our "don't know" is: Is adopting the view of kamma and rebirth a part of the path to ending suffering? Is holding the view there is no kamma and rebirth an obstacle to ending suffering?
- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:32 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:51 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:59 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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AdvaitaJ
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby AdvaitaJ » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:01 am

I'll confess to being one of the two (so far) "Not Sure"s. I'm too new to Buddhism to know if the belief is necessary to self-proclaim as a Buddhist or not.

My rookie view is that Buddhism is a path. The Buddha walked the entire thing and mapped it out for the rest of us. That map is the Dhamma. There are others who are right now walking the same path. Some are farther along than others. This is the Sangha. What I do know is that the map is spot-on for the distance I've traveled thus far. Do this, go here, and you'll find "x" and lo and behold, there's "x" right where it's supposed to be. This gives me confidence in the map, but not complete faith.

In my current understanding of "everything", there is no way I can fathom for rebirth to be possible. Without rebirth, the effects of kamma upon me personally are restricted to this life. And, for the moment, that's all I need to keep walking the path. Anatta is starting to reveal itself and that's enough for me to deal with right now.

So, if someone were to ask me if I'm a Buddhist, my answer is 'I'm working on it.'

Regards: AdvaitaJ
Last edited by AdvaitaJ on Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:13 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:09 am

- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:11 am

- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:12 am

- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:18 am

- Peter


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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:23 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

mudra
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby mudra » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:33 am

I voted yes, and in my mind probably pretty emphatically.

One is free to think and do whatever one wants, as long one is ready to accept whatever consequences there are.

However if one devotes oneself to a particular system to the point of identifying with it and 'joining the system' in order to get the results which one is convinced the system will lead to, then that changes things - at least from the perspective of the system being effective or not for you to get the promised results.

To be Buddhist, as has been pointed out above, means to have such complete confidence in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha that one takes refuge in the Three Jewels. By taking refuge it doesn't imply hiding or simply being protected in a passive sense, it means that we take steps and measures in accordance with the Buddha's system outlined. The Buddha was most clear about cause and effect - whether related to karma or other forces. He was also pretty clear about the nature of mind as being something which has it's own dynamic, which in turn has a bearing on our happiness.

The fact that a Buddhist gets hung up about the "person/self" literally being reborn and not understanding it is merely a continuum of mind is more indicative of the lack of study, reflection and meditation than a case of not being able to prove something empirically.

As has been pointed out above, faith is an important ingredient, and again when the Buddha asks us to investigate his teachings it isn't about determining whether they were true or not but more about 'why' they are true - developing greater conviction, which in turn leads to better results.

If you don't believe in an ongoing mental continuum, if you don't have any conviction about cause and effect, that's ok - but this system is not for you. The whole structure of Buddhism is based on cause and effect (4NT, 8FP) and the ongoing mental continuum.

Meanwhile if one wants to continue investigate, what harm is there in that?

:thinking:

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:19 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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tiltbillings
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:28 am


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cooran
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby cooran » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:46 am

Hello all,

On the topic of "To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?":

To me, it's quite simple. I hold that, if, after studying the Teachings, practising sila and meditation, and discussing with other buddhists, for a long time, - you find you have proven that much of what the Buddha teaches is true - but cannot produce irrefutable proof of kamma and rebirth - then simply set them aside and live "as if" they are true, as everything else you have tested has been found to be. This is what saddha is to me - confidence in the teachings of the Buddha because of what I have found to be true, and acceptance of things which he also teaches which are not provable at my present level of understanding.
These links may be of interest:
Dhamma Without Rebirth? by Bhikkhu Bodhi
In line with the present-day stress on the need for religious teachings to be personally relevant and directly verifiable, in certain Dhamma circles the time-honored Buddhist doctrine of rebirth has come up for severe re-examination. Although only a few contemporary Buddhist thinkers still go so far as to suggest that this doctrine be scrapped as "unscientific," another opinion has been gaining ground to the effect that whether or not rebirth itself be a fact, the doctrine of rebirth has no essential bearings on the practice of Dhamma and thence no claim to an assured place in the Buddhist teachings. The Dhamma, it is said, is concerned solely with the here and now, with helping us to resolve our personal hangups through increased self-awareness and inner honesty. All the rest of Buddhism we can now let go as the religious trappings of an ancient culture utterly inappropriate for the Dhamma of our technological age.
If we suspend our own predilections for the moment and instead go directly to our sources, we come upon the indisputable fact that the Buddha himself taught rebirth and taught it as a basic tenet of his teaching. Viewed in their totality, the Buddha's discourses show us that far from being a mere concession to the outlook prevalent in his time or an Asiatic cultural contrivance, the doctrine of rebirth has tremendous implications for the entire course of Dhamma practice, affecting both the aim with which the practice is taken up and the motivation with which it is followed through to completion.
http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Dham ... kkhu_Bodhi

and, if after investigation, study and practice you feel that kamma and rebirth are not true - then set Buddhism aside and find a path elsewhere.

Does Rebirth Make Sense? by Bhikkhu Bodhi
The Buddha includes belief in rebirth and kamma in his definition of right view, and their explicit denial in wrong view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_46.html

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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clw_uk
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:58 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:23 pm

- Peter


mudra
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:33 am

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby mudra » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:20 pm



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