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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 12:22 am 
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reddust wrote:
I thought Tutteji was making fun of the corporate model of Buddhism, you know the monetization of the Dharma :tongue: He is not for real right? I took him as a comedian.


Yes, it is satire. Unfortunately though Michael Roach, Genpo Roshi, etc are dead serious.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 12:31 am 
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Yes, it is satire.

D'oh!

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 1:05 am 
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Capitalism commercializes *everything*. If it's not worth a buck, everyone looses interest and you never hear about it. A few years ago, I read an article in the media about the trademark wars over yoga terminology. Some organisation had trademarked some Sanskrit terms, and then sued any other yoga school who tried to use them. The commercialization around the Guru trail in India is immense. So it's not just Buddhism that is subject to this. (Have a look at Karma Cola: Marketing the Mystic East, Gita Mehta.)

//edit// just remember the wise old saying, the only reason that there is fool's gold, is because there's gold.//edit//

//edit2//Got no time for any of those x-Buddhist types//edit2//

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 1:36 am 
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Imagehttp://tuttejiorg.wordpress.com/about/


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 1:44 am 
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I think it's better to not be concerned with other people's ethics as long as they aren't directly hurting others.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 2:37 am 
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I found a bunch of x-Buddhist through my wordpress blog. They like to go fishing for silly Buddhist which made me kinda sad...I really liked a lot of the writers until I saw how they enjoyed making others look stupid and silly. Many are super smart and can write amazing philosophical articles explaining their view. Many x-Buddhist and Buddhist seem to me to be silly and stupid, (I am that way at least twice a week) but that's their own business. Gosh in the end we are just human beings stuck in Samsara :thinking:

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 5:11 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
catlady2112 wrote:
I read in some earlier posts of people who went to a (Buddhist Geeks?) conference and said there was an overemphasis on how to market yourself in order to get students.


Seriously? That is corrupt. Such people will merely send themselves to hell.


Agreed, it is corrupt. I don't know anything about what you folks are referring to, but I have seen it close up big time on my local level ... imagine there are similarities. Unfortunately, these days, water, electricity and land don't come for free... so business is called for and it always comes with strings. So-called marketing is the antithesis of non-attachment. Doesn't anyone notice??? I never cease to be amazed. The funny part is that the marketing just doesn't work.... so much effort and dollars spent for ppl who come and go.... no prob tho... the amnesia works well! I was behind the lines, I saw first hand. ofc, I'm speaking from a narrow western perspective.

My first teacher, who was not a Buddhist, never advertised. He worked with over 30,000 ppl over 40 years... it was all word of mouth. He was never known in the media.... go figure that mystery, and that trust. None of my subsequent teachers came close.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:36 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:


Yes, one of those x-buddhist hacks.


The person in the photo is not an x-buddhist. The website is a spoof and the picture is of Boris Johnson, mayor of London.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:39 am 
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reddust wrote:
.... Gosh in the end we are just human beings stuck in Samsara :thinking:


I hear this a lot and wonder why one would want to identify with this. Not that I think we are in nirvana, but this concept of samsara needs to be looked into very carefully. What often happens is that some kind identity is built up around it.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:44 am 
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Kunzang wrote:
I don't know if it was just tragic coincindence or should be seen as a cautionary tale but one of my fellow sangha "broke away" to start her own dharma enterprise and then in no short time died of cancer. Some of you might remember Rita as she posted a lot on e-sangha and on some other boards:

http://thelotusbloomsinthemud.com/tag/rita-frizzell/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The implicit suggestion here is that she got cancer as a kind of punishment for the bad thing she did. I'm wondering why would you consider this type of thinking o.k? Do you really think that it was a coincidence? If you did think it was a coincidence why mention it?

I'm wondering how a mechanistic and determinist view of karma can be seen as being in accord with Buddhist principles.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 am 
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Andrew108 wrote:
The website is a spoof and the picture is of Boris Johnson, mayor of London.


It's 'a hack' in the sense of 'a hacked image' - in this case, an image of Boris Johnson.

I found that site some time back, it would be amusing if it weren't dripping in such vitriol. It is true that there are people who try and commercialise spiritual and personal growth products but I don't think they're really representative of what 'Western Buddhism' is about.

I interacted a few times on the x-Buddhism blog (which is no longer active.) The contributors there were undoubtedly highly educated but really rather embittered and cynical, I thought.

Remember the Gospel advice 'lest ye be as children'. OK, I know it's not from a Buddhist, but one does well to heed it in matters spiritual.

Andrew108 wrote:
What often happens is that some kind identity is built up around [samsara].


You don't say? Isn't that the point? That our identity as persons, with all of our identifications and possessions and attachments, is the very thing which gives rise to 'samsara' in the first place.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:57 am 
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Wayfarer wrote:
You don't say? Isn't that the point? That our identity as persons, with all of our identifications and possessions and attachments, is the very thing which gives rise to 'samsara' in the first place.


Yes, but why call it samsara? Identity building is what it should be called. Giving identity building a nice sounding name can lead to more identity building. This is at the heart of the issue. It is important to strip away all these terms that can get monetized. When you do that then nó one can make any money. It's only when people have been fed the idea of 'samsara and escape from it' that organisations can make their money.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:07 am 
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Samsara is essential to the meaning of Buddhism. Whether it is commercialized is another matter. Saying it's not is like saying 'OK, let's teach physics without any reference to inertia' or 'biology without any reference to evolution'. Certainly I think there are not many people who understand the import of Samsara, but that doesn't mean you can just leave it out. And Buddhists have been perfectly aware of the dangers of 'attachment to Buddhism', right from the very earliest teachings. That is the meaning of the Parable of the Raft (which incidentally is without parallel in other religious traditions.) So if you use 'belief in Samsara' or 'belief in Buddhism' to re-inforce your ego, any Buddhist teacher worth his salt will see through it straight away.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:13 am 
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From Rita's website (http://www.luminousmind.net/host.html), I don't think she was claiming to be anything more than a "facilitator". She clearly wasn't trying to take a guru role. I remember her posts with fondness and a very warm energy, even through the internet. I liked her.

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Rita does not claim authorization or lineage teaching credentials in any school of Buddhism. Rather, she is an avid student who loves the dharma and studies both broadly and deeply. If she has a talent, it is in bringing together resources to create conditions for students to learn.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:18 am 
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I can only say, seems very sad that she died so young, seemed like a great person and, I'm sure, a kindred spirit to many contributors here.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:54 am 
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JKhedrup wrote:
I remember her posts with fondness and a very warm energy, even through the internet. I liked her.


Me too; she was the embodiment of ebullience and gave great hugs too. Very sad.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 2:07 pm 
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Kunzang wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
I remember her posts with fondness and a very warm energy, even through the internet. I liked her.


Me too; she was the embodiment of ebullience and gave great hugs too. Very sad.


Indeed, she was a lovely person from the little I knew of her, I think she was Rita Gold back in the day on a certain forum, and she was working through her graphic art (someone put a link to that site) to help compile a book for the Khenpo Brothers on Dudjom Rinpoche life, the biography, and she wanted to know how to get a certain picture of Pemakod, a pic Ian Baker snapped, and I let her know I could put her in contact with him, and she was thrilled, and she told me that the Khenpo bros loved that picture and wanted that picture for the book, that they thought it was the ideal picture to use, that it captured the feel of the land where Dudjom Rinpoche spent many years of his life, it's the one with the mountain and the river gorge going around it, it's a very dramatic, actually "breath taking" photo. Anyway, she said it was for the book and because it was Khenpo bros fave they wondered if they could use that pic, so I got ahold of Ian Bakers "significant other" over in India, and eventually she got permission to use it before the rapidly approaching deadline for the book's printing, and she let me know that this use of this pic really "thrilled" the Khenpo bros, that they were very pleased, very happy. She always struck me as someone who was trying her best to be of service for her Lamas, the Khenpo bros, but I could have it wrong ... maybe my memory isn't serving me well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:53 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
reddust wrote:
.... Gosh in the end we are just human beings stuck in Samsara :thinking:


I hear this a lot and wonder why one would want to identify with this. Not that I think we are in nirvana, but this concept of samsara needs to be looked into very carefully. What often happens is that some kind identity is built up around it.


My Buddhist practice has not been comfy cozy and it has not brought me peace and happiness, at least not the kind of peace and happiness sold on today's markets. I can see clearly the causes of my suffering, that's unsettling to say the least but also very useful dealing with life. I have found some emotional equanimity, stable footing in the quick-silver, slip-stream of body/mind but that may be because I'm in my 50s now and grew out of all the stuff that used to get me all riled up. I think the commercialization of Buddhism will use the sales technique, take this meditation and it will cure all that ails you...which is totally bull-poopy. Yeah chant this a billion times or sit like this and you are gonna find peace and happiness even though you are living in a world that makes it's living from your suffering.

At the beginning of my Dharma education I was taught by my first Dharma teacher what Samsara is and also how to grasp and not grasp the Dharma/Dhamma correctly. I can't remember the Sutta I was given but there is a grass you can use to sit on for meditation that is nice and cushy, but if you grasp this grass incorrectly while picking it for your cushion you will cut yourself.

We should worry about our own identity and not worry about what other people are thinking correctly or incorrectly. My Grandma said, "Clean off your own porch before you tell me to clean up mine." I see lot's of SNL Church Ladies in Buddhism.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... s-s07b.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:05 pm 
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Wayfarer wrote:
Remember the Gospel advice 'lest ye be as children'.

Honestly, I don't think that expresses a particularly Buddhist sentiment.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:10 pm 
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To reddust - thanks for the link. I always enjoy reading Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. He concludes with "The giving up of unskillful clinging is, then, the key to Buddhist practice."

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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