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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:26 pm 
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I am currently sitting in the waiting room of a public mental health facility. Anything that can help these people is a step in the right direction.

Edit: My friend just came out of a group therapy session with a handout that mentions Jung in the context of dreams.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:

One thing I have always found that seems contradictory about western farmings vs. Dharma is the obsession with "healthy identity"..however, when you view them from a Buddhist perspective where all identity is acknowledged to exist in a relative sense..it doesn't seem so bad.



Erm, yeah. If you would be suffering from a form of mental illness that comes with heavy identity problems, like for example personality disorders, early trauma that leads to developmental deficits, or with the experience of what is called depersonalisation/derealistation you would understand why talk about healthy identity is important.

I feel that this identity problem affair is also connected with what tibetan medicine calls wind disorders.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:59 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:

My teacher is both a Loppon, and a masters in Western Pysch and mental health professional..I was lucky enough to get to talk with him about this stuff recently as I am planning on going into addiction counseling, and eventually at least getting a B.S..




If you want to counsel people with addiction you should have basic knowledge about psychiatry/psychotherapy because a lot of people who develop addiction do so in an attempt of self medication for some mental health issue.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:56 pm 
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theanarchist wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:

My teacher is both a Loppon, and a masters in Western Pysch and mental health professional..I was lucky enough to get to talk with him about this stuff recently as I am planning on going into addiction counseling, and eventually at least getting a B.S..




If you want to counsel people with addiction you should have basic knowledge about psychiatry/psychotherapy because a lot of people who develop addiction do so in an attempt of self medication for some mental health issue.






CDP programs in my state basically involve the equivalent of an associates degree, so it kind of goes without saying that it involves as basic knowledge of what you describe. - as I assume most addiction-specific licenses would. Likely about halfway towards a BS in psychology anyway - so I figure I might as well get the BS, then maybe I can go for more. Yes obviously, if you stick just to addiction, you are likely to often be treating a symptom of something else. Nonetheless, seems to be a demand thing..and there is no shortage of addicted folks, so it is a good way to start off in the mental health field I think..though by all descriptions challenging.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Hi Anders :hi:

I have a strong deja vu about this topic - haven't we discussed this in another place and time but with some of the same participants, though the niks have changed?

Nevertheless, I think it is a great topic, because like it or not spiritual bypass is real for many eminent practitioners, not just Lou Nordstrom. I guess I don't quite click with the quote in your OP because this 'bringing things out of the unconscious and into the conscious' is to my way of seeing, a very partial way to approach it. Whether a dream, a forgotten memory or a persistent feeling or fantasy, rather than analysing or parsing it in one way or another, I feel it is more useful to go down to its level, meet it on its own terms. If you are interested, check out The Dream and the Underworld by James Hillman, who used to be a director of the Jung Insitute in Zuerich but was very much an independent mind.

I guess practice furnishes another narrative of what we are and brings about an attitude to the psyche that may sometimes lead to this bypass rather than healing. I've seen it in others and myself and though I've never been in therapy I sometimes wonder if that therapeutic space would be more conducive to dealing with some deeply ingrained patterns than the cushion. :shrug: But I find that a good dose of the 'don't know mind' and a patient gentle attitude go a long way even in the absence of a trained professional.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:32 pm 
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deja vu, indeed! whatever I said is like water over the damn.

Seeing the overlap today in terms of simply being with the experience, nothing added. Buddhism has tools for that. In a sense, it reframes the experience when possible. Purification can happen naturally. Psychology also has tools for that. And, it's not so simple or even possible in a multi-layered circumstance. I found James Hilman's book, Loose Ends, invaluable for re-framing betrayal. That helped on a cognitive level. Other levels call for other experiences and approaches. The physiology of the body can't be overlooked.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:36 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
With respect Anders these threads tend to end in a certain amount of dissonance..

Which of course might be therapeutic.

Put over simplistically, the aim of therapy is to restore normal functioning..
" normal " being what is normative in a given culture.

Dharma's aim is to undo the self sense of the practitioner, so that the way things really are is seen.
Which may in some senses , and to a degree, and temporarily or permanently disrupt what is normative..

If there is an overlap I would suggest that it is found not in Freud or Jung but in those therapies which take their base line from becoming aware of habitual cognitions and seeing that there are alternatives..CBT for example.


Well I am afraid once more Anders a discussion of PSYCHOTHERAPY and Dharma seems to be more than some members are prepared to allow.
Instead they want to rehearse their own agendas.
Which in brief, is to list their aversion to psychiatry and psychology..

And not to address psychotherapy.

Its very revealing...its also extraordinary .

When I read your threads title I hoped that the discussion would not deteriorate in the same way as its predecessors..but I was sure it would. And it has.

I suspect that if in a year or five years someone posts a similar thread about the growing interface between Dharma and some forms of psychotherapy it will once more be buried by those whose need to sound off about their favourite hobbyhorses.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:23 pm 
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When studied by mathematician Bruce Wampold the type of psychotherapy was not a factor in it's effectiveness. http://books.google.ca/books/about/The_ ... MSRTjn0TIC
A summary of his finding were;

Psychotherapy is effective
The type of treatment is not a factor
The theoretical bases of the techniques used, and the strictness of adherence to those techniques are both not factors
The therapist's strength of belief in the efficacy of the technique is a factor
The personality of the therapist is a significant factor
The alliance between the patient(s) and the therapist (meaning affectionate and trusting feelings toward the therapist, motivation and collaboration of the client, and empathic response of the therapist) is a key factor

Wampold therefore concludes that "we do not know why psychotherapy works".

Hans Eysenck(one of the most eminent psychologists of the 20th century) did a study in 1952 that found that two thirds of patients improved significantly or recovered on their own within two years, whether or not they received psychotherapy.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:09 am 
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Per your request Simon, things were said in jest but this wasn't so funny to me. It was supposed to be a funny topic about how silly science can get. humans descended from sex between a chimp and a pig

Simon E. wrote:
reddust wrote:
Pimping for big Pharma? :tongue:


I'm not going into this hot topic …peace out :namaste:

Wow...So having gone into the kitchen and rattled the pots and pans its now too hot for you ?

Textbook passive/aggression.


viewtopic.php?f=47&t=14833

When I started my meditation retreat work it was after I had done cognitive therapy related to living with an abusive husband and changed my diet and exercise patterns. I was really healthy by the time I entered my retreat work. I don't know if I could of done any serious meditation and study work if I had to deal with my fear regarding why I was feeling so badly. Some seriously weird stuff came up in retreat and if I hadn't had a good teacher to help me I think I would of experienced some really negative reactions to what I saw inside my head. I had to figure out why I felt so bad and deal with those issues before I started my practice. I didn't know this at the time, that's just how it worked out for me. I cleaned house first without knowing that is a great way to start practice.

The areas where Buddhism and psychotherapy could is the four sublime states of mind and practical stories told in the Dhamapada on how to deal with daily stress. My favorite was the passages on fools. (hahaha) My teachers told me that meditation was not to be used to have a better life but for enlightenment. So I couldn't go into retreat with the thought this is going to fix my depression or panic attacks, which I still had to deal with on occasion as I worked on cleaning up my life. I think if you are sick for a long time you get into the habit of being sick so you have to overcome the physical and mental habits related to an illness that has been cured. That's what I ran into when I went into retreat.

Also I think psychotherapy has to compete with big pharma huge budget and marketing monster. It is so much more cost effective for insurance companies and easier for the patient to pop a pill to control feelings and emotions. You have to take time and money for us common folk a very little budget to visit the therapist for a long time. I don't know how the mental health system under our new system is going to work. I'm not involved anymore. It cost my family a lot of money out of pocket my insurance company wouldn't cover and that was over 20 years ago.

So I figure the fringes of Buddhism and therapy might meet working with the sublime states of the mind like loving wise kindness, patience, equanimity, wisdom.... Dig any deeper and you run into a bunch of stuff that's hard for those who have healthy robust minds to work with. There so much money and time involved. No quick fix for those who don't have a lot of time. Here is a good article on psychotherapy's image problem. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/30/opini ... oblem.html

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:23 am 
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You know what would be really cool?

If the thread didn't get derailed again by people posting the same stuff they always post about the mental health field in any thread that touches the subject, surely if people want to post in a thread about how terrible the mental health industry, pharmaceutical industry etc. is, we have threads galore for that. It appears to me the OP posted with the intention of a real discussion on the intersections here, which hopefully doesn't get derailed the way nearly all discussions on this subject have been in my time on the forum.

Honestly, my suggestion is if people want to just want to complain about the mental health field etc...rather than addressing the themes in the OP, that you make a new thread for that, and hopefully let this thread develop in a way previous threads with this subject matter haven't been allowed to.

Again, not giving anyone ultimatums or trying to pull rank here, just trying to be honest - the behavior pattern as i've seen it so far with these threads isn't productive at all, if people want to simply rail about the industry, I think there are more appropriate places than this thread, especially since we already have a ton of threads with the same folks making the same arguments.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:27 am 
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I'd like that


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:46 am 
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Anders wrote:
That leaves me with a few points of interest I'd like to explore:

Where does therapy end and Buddhism begin?

Hello Anders! You may have heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, yes? Well, you don't need to buy the whole package, but generally speaking, if you're fighting for mere survival you may not have a lot of extra time and energy to spend on religious stuff. That makes sense doesn't it???

That said, therapy ends with more or less adaptive (as opposed to maladaptive) behaviors. Buddhism begins with the need for Meaning. Yes, I capitalized meaning, cuz it's soo meaningful and importante.

Quote:
Why is this distinction only becoming relevant now? Traditional Buddhism does not seem to operate on a "sort your personal issues with that, then come to Buddhism for this" model - Rather, the whole "personal issues" thing seems largely ignored. Was it simply less relevant, did Buddhist practise actually address it in ways we are missing today or has this lack always existed in Buddhism?

Well, what did people do before the horse and buggy was invented? They walked.

What did people do before heart transplant procedures? They died.

Need I go on?

Quote:
One of these questions I'd like to explore a bit more fully - To what extent can Buddhist practise be therapeutic? And are there methods within Buddhism more suited to this than others?

The question is so broad as to be nearly meaningless. Hug therapy can be therapeutic. Scream therapy can probably be therapeutic in some way. In different circumstances either of these therapies can probably be quite harmful. And there are all sorts of methods within Buddhism. New methods are no doubt being developed as we type here. Remember, everything changes! :tongue:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:51 am 
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dude wrote:
I'd like that


So would I.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:54 am 
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The problem with meditation vs. psychotherapy is that one can be unprepared for suddenly meeting the evil Mara, thereby making it hard to get happy within any of the methods. Psychotherapy can not bring real happiness of course, only temporary resolving of emotional troubles. :guns:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:25 am 
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Anders did not pose the discussion as Psychotherapy VERSUS Dharma...complete with antagonism smilie..

You are right of course ..psychotherapy is unlikely to bring a cessation of suffering.
But many cannot practice the means to do that until their mundane conflicts have been resolved to some degree.

Thrangu Rinpoche is one of many teachers who will send some students to psychotherapy before conferring HYT empowerments..He doesn't expect them to be 'cured'. He wants them workable with.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:24 am 
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Simon E, are you back with the rest of us now?

:thumbsup:

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Last edited by odysseus on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:26 am 
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There's somewhere else to go ? :smile:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:28 am 
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Neat question man, bring them all home...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:36 pm 
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reddust wrote:
Per your request Simon, things were said in jest but this wasn't so funny to me.


Over a year and a half ago. Y'all know how to hold a grudge.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:03 pm 
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That would also explain why ( apart from my general decreptitude ) I had no memory of the exchange at all...having put it down the other side of the puddle at the time.


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