Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:16 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 107 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 am
Posts: 933
Ken Wilbur 'suggests that 20 to 25 years of meditation can yield full enlightenment, yet he admits that he has not achieved this state nor met anyone who has.'

Intregal world


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am
Posts: 1596
Let's face it, 4th turning is needed. All the presently available teachings and methods are not sufficiently effective. A big part of understanding the functioning of the mind is missing. Medicine is rapidly unveiling the secrets of the brain, and the one who will combine those discoveries with Dharma, will turn the wheel. I don't know about the work of Ken Wilber, but I know that Shinzen Young is working on the subject (the only person with Buddhist background that says he is awakened).

_________________
Say what you think about me here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:02 am 
Online

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Posts: 2193
greentara wrote:
Ken Wilbur 'suggests that 20 to 25 years of meditation can yield full enlightenment, yet he admits that he has not achieved this state nor met anyone who has.'

(formatting mine)

Well really now. I've seen him a Kalu R. teachings, and he has "studied" with Penor R.?

Whatever. He has his karma, I have mine. No use for me to worry about his. The Dharma benefits everyone differently according to their karma.

_________________
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm
Posts: 542
:popcorn:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
Ken's view of Buddhism is mostly his own fabrications and misinterpretations in general, so whatever turning or reinventing of any wheel he is involved in is undoubtably complete b.s.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:10 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
JKhedrup wrote:
Is Ken Wilber fully trained in any traditional Buddhist tradition?


No, but who aside from a few lineage holders is fully trained?

Quote:
I have read several articles he has written and clearly he is a deep thinker


He's had some education .... but his tomes are generally pseudo-academic fabrications. Perhaps his psychological studies (others have said they exist) have some merit.

Quote:
but I am wondering if he has received any in-depth training in Buddhism. Such training would be helpful if one were to try and bring about a "Fourth Turning of the Wheel".


Clearly not a fan. However Thurman, while not going as far as calling for a 4th Turning, also makes some of the same claims as outlined in the OP. And of course he does have some training.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm
Posts: 952
greentara wrote:
Ken Wilbur 'suggests that 20 to 25 years of meditation can yield full enlightenment, yet he admits that he has not achieved this state nor met anyone who has.'


Talking about not meeting someone whose state one can not recognise is flawed thinking. One does not recognize the unrecognisable.

Shinzen Young that someone mentions, like the Buddha, is awake for those interested . . . and now back to the popcorn :popcorn:

_________________
YinYana Buddhism


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:52 pm
Posts: 194
greentara wrote:
Ken Wilbur 'suggests that 20 to 25 years of meditation can yield full enlightenment, yet he admits that he has not achieved this state nor met anyone who has.'

Intregal world


On average? Enlightenment happens quickly or slowly according to your karma doesn't it? It could happen in an instant. In one sutra a layman who'd been drinking was awakened by the Buddha wasn't he? That's going to the absolute extreme, but the thing that gets me there is that a "20 to 25 years" thing is no way set in stone. Surely he just meant on average.

I've read a little of his stuff in the past, it was one of his models that seemed well thought out, and it looked like he'd put a lot of time and effort into what he'd worked on. This looks like he's put time and effort into what he's worked on too, but I fear he doesn't understand the level of awakening you're going to need to make an actual turning of the wheel.

That's just my view though, I'm concerned. I'm not judging him outright, and maybe with some help he'll actually do something good. This is the issue with me though : there's good, and there's brilliant, and there's levels beyond it. But we're talking about a turning here. The bar is raised so high that it's almost impossible to comprehend. The decline of the Dharma often concerns me, and even if this is accepted on a big scale, the others who don't accept it could just decide to make their own new turnings as well couldn't they? Then what do we have? Thousands of different turnings to go along with thousands of different teachings?

Will research further at some point hopefully, I just hope he isn't about to majorly screw his karma up because he seems to have put a lot of work into trying to help people over the years.

_________________
"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:34 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am
Posts: 1140
Maybe the point about turning the wheel of Dharma, is that to think in those terms now is rather a strange and radical venture. Perhaps heretical.

Buddhist orthodoxy is firmly fixated on the past; its great scholars are historians and philologists - so much debate about what Buddhism was, rather than what it is, or might become. When did Buddhism last produce a great philosopher?

In a way, we're all ingrained to look backwards, at past great epochs - and we marvel at them, try to embody them.

Wilber as a Buddhist philosopher, psychologist, yogi - I must admit, I find....well, laughable.

But perhaps he raises an interesting Hegelian challenge to all of us: can we consider ourselves as part of a greater historical unfolding?

I think that kind of thought is so foreign to Buddhists, because if we're good at our Buddhism we think about the particular, not the whole. And we break it down, and we break it down again. And we find that whatever it is was, no longer exists.

But though we are not trained to conceive of it, there is an unfolding history of Buddhist Dharma, of which we are a part. Maybe it is good to think about this.....

:anjali:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:55 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5773
ngodrup wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
Quote:
"Tibetan Buddhism is unique among religious traditions for its “turnings,” the recognition of its own evolutionary unfolding.


No, it's not. Written by someone who has obviously never touched East Asian Buddhism.

~~Huifeng


Not really true. Ken is a free thinker, an academic, but ignorant of East Asian Buddhism he's not.
He has been studying with H.H. Penor Rinpoche and Chagdud Rinpoche for quite some time.
I've sat next to him on several occasions.

I like some of is ideas.
That said, I don't buy this particular idea.
Better as a transpersonal psychologist than philosopher.


Wilber's more an entrepreneur than anything. He's not a philosopher, and he's certainly not an academic.

Huifeng's claim that Wilber is ignorant of East Asian Buddhism is correct. Wilber's having studied with Tibetan masters such as Penor Rinpoche and Chagdud Rinpoche (both of whom I respect a great deal) does not rebut this. Huifeng's point is that such wheel-turnings are anything but unknown in East Asian Buddhism, and therefore Wilber's claim that this is somehow unprecedented betrays his (Wilber's) ignorance. I'll also mark that KW may well have practiced under the direction of those masters, but isn't any longer--sadly, both are deceased, and have been for years.

J Meyerhoff's criticisms of Wilber are worth reviewing, even if they're somewhat overstated (this was first published online at the Integral World website):

http://www.amazon.com/Bald-Ambition-Cri ... 0615380387

And how does Wilber respond to such criticism?

http://www.integralworld.net/visser15.html


Relevant DW threads:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 56&start=0

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15536

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=8006

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:02 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5773
In Tibetan history, there have been masters who have proclaimed a new Turning of the Wheel, or a doctrinal innovation that constitutes Something Big. One such master was Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen, who left signs of accomplishment upon his decease.

it seems to me that Wilber is presenting himself as a Buddhist master on par with such world-historical figures as Dolpopa. I don't know if he's right or wrong to do so; I've never met the man. It certainly appears Mr Wilber is not lacking in self-confidence.

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:27 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5773
tobes wrote:

Wilber as a Buddhist philosopher, psychologist, yogi - I must admit, I find....well, laughable.

But perhaps he raises an interesting Hegelian challenge to all of us: can we consider ourselves as part of a greater historical unfolding?


On this point, I agree we must give Wilber the benefit of the doubt. This is a worthwhile thought experiment. It opens onto a second question: if we are on the edge of a greater historical unfolding, then who are we, the first ones to catch on to this historical tendency? Does this make "us" early adapters somehow special, or does it put us in a position of responsibility for the care of others? I think for Wilber it means an endless series of self-congratulatory interviews with the likes of Andrew Cohen, in which they high-five each other on constituting the vanguard of evolutionary consciousness. Rockstars, Rude Boys, "God is not a Gentleman," &c: this kind of thinking can go sideways, and may have already done so in this case.

That said, this notion of world-historical emergence and immanence of awakening is hardly foreign to the Buddhist tradition. Wonhyo had some interesting things to say about this, for instance; see the translation, Cultivating Original Enlightenment, trans. Buswell.

(I still think Dunayevskaya, Marcuse, even Zizek have more convincing readings of Hegel than Wilber has... his conflation of Nagarjuna and Schelling in Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality is something of a train wreck)

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:23 pm
Posts: 102
He doesn't seem too factually reliable, but a blog I find very interesting often quotes him, so perhaps some of his big ideas are worth thinking about http://loveofallwisdom.com/blog/tag/ken-wilber/

The 'four turnings are unique to Tibetan Buddhism' thing is quite a howler.

To be honest I think the four turnings as traditionally conceived might be more conservative than the idea of different stages of revelation in the Abrahamic religions. I would reach for other ideas in Buddhism to support a historically adaptive view of the Dharma. Or at least, if you're going to use the four turnings to talk about the long history of Buddhism, then you should show some awareness that that is not how the metaphor has been traditionally conceived (as far as I know).

The four turnings of the wheel supposedly all took place in Gautama Buddha's lifetime, whereas the Abrahmic religions conceive of a history of religious adaptation spanning millennia with various prophets, final messages from god, final final messages from god, final I'm serious this time final ultimate messages from god.

Quote:
"Tibetan Buddhism is unique among religious traditions for its “turnings,” the recognition of its own evolutionary unfolding. Whereas most of the world’s religious institutions are purposely designed to preserve tradition and withstand the pressures of an ever-changing world, Buddhism is often praised for its ability to evolve as new knowledge and wisdom comes to light.
Since the last major evolution of Buddhism over a thousand years ago..
[...]
So will there be a Fourth Turning of Buddhism? We certainly think it is possible..


It's also pretty silly to suggest that Buddhism today has not undergone major change for 1,000 years. That's just not true, no matter which tradition you look at. Less than 1000 years ago in China you'd catch some quite fundamental repackaging of the Zen tradition. I know lots of the major figures in Japanese Buddhism lived in the last millennium. He's calling for a change that has naturally been underway since.. whenever you want to start.. if we look at the 20th century: Vipassana movement in Burma, Humanistic Buddhism in China, DT Suzuki's Zen.... I mean, Western Buddhist culture is already a thing, isn't it: Tricycle magazine, 'secular' buddhists..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:09 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Posts: 2193
Tim Leary also claimed some sort of grandiose historical moment/change in awareness. He had a far more compelling case to put forward than KW. If they ever defrost his head we can ask him more about it.

_________________
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:17 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 2107
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Buddhism doesn't need any more division; it needs more unity. At IBMC in Los Angeles they have always had several monks and nuns from the three traditions of Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana.

http://www.ibmc-la.org/teachers.html

They do practices and chanting from the 3 traditions. A participant can practice in any or all of the traditions, with whatever resonates with them. I think this is fitting with the Buddha-Dharma as the teachings include several different techniques based on one's temperament. One can learn and study all traditions and then focus on one if one finds success or interest in a particular technique. But the traditions could all be found "under one roof" so to speak or even literally as in the case of IBMC.

_________________
Image
www.TheDhamma.com/
Dhamma Wiki encyclopedia
Dhamma Wheel forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:26 pm
Posts: 577
JKhedrup wrote:
Is Ken Wilber fully trained in any traditional Buddhist tradition?

I have read several articles he has written and clearly he is a deep thinker but I am wondering if he has received any in-depth training in Buddhism. Such training would be helpful if one were to try and bring about a "Fourth Turning of the Wheel".



I read a book by him some years ago. Really spaced out new age-y mumbo jumbo there that does only vaguely resemble anything buddhist.

is there a need of a fourth turning of the wheel? Nope.

What is needed is a synthesis of all three turnings of the wheel with modern psychology, psychotherapy and science to help with the particular style of confusion and mental suffering that can be found in our "civilised" countries as well as a troubled world.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Posts: 2295
dzogchungpa wrote:
I believe Da Free John called his stuff "Advaitayana Buddhism" for a while, and presented it as a fourth yana, after Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana.

My point being that Wilber seems to be following in his guru's footsteps:
http://www.adidawilber.com/

_________________
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:22 am
Posts: 55
dzogchungpa wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
I believe Da Free John called his stuff "Advaitayana Buddhism" for a while, and presented it as a fourth yana, after Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana.

My point being that Wilber seems to be following in his guru's footsteps:
http://www.adidawilber.com/

Well..."guru" might be a bit strong. As far as I know, Wilber had never been a formal member of Adidam (at least for any real length of time, not even to the extent that, say, Georg Feuerstein, was).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm
Posts: 952
theanarchist wrote:
What is needed is a synthesis of all three turnings of the wheel with modern psychology, psychotherapy and science to help with the particular style of confusion and mental suffering that can be found in our "civilised" countries as well as a troubled world.


I hope so.

The cultural baggage of past and superseded teachings, clung to with group attachments is no substitute for updated tooling.

OM MANI PEME HO HUM

:popcorn:

_________________
YinYana Buddhism


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Posts: 2295
Jetavan wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
I believe Da Free John called his stuff "Advaitayana Buddhism" for a while, and presented it as a fourth yana, after Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana.

My point being that Wilber seems to be following in his guru's footsteps:
http://www.adidawilber.com/

Well..."guru" might be a bit strong...

From http://www.adidawilber.com/letter_to_adidam_community/:
Wilber wrote:
Do I believe that Master Adi Da is the greatest Realizer of all time? I certainly believe He is the greatest living Realizer. Anything beyond that is sheer speculation. How could any of us judge? Who among us has met Gautama Buddha? Who has experienced Satsang with Sri Ramana Maharshi? Who has lived in the company of Padmasambhava? I have sat in satsang with Master Adi Da, and with numerous other great Adepts, and my own opinion is that Master Adi Da is the living Sat-Guru. Beyond that, how could I say with any personal authority?
...
But for those students who are ready, and who fully understand the gravity of the decision, I speak of Master Da as the Sat-Guru, and recommend that they pursue that Way to the extent that they are capable: student, disciple, devotee. And I have always said — and still say publicly — that not a single person can afford not to be at least a student of the Written Teaching.

I affirm my own love and devotion to the living Sat-Guru, and I hope my work will continue to bring students to the Way of the Heart.

_________________
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 107 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group