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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:00 pm 
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Interesting concise article and new project from Ken Wilber, exploring what a "4th turning" would include, in the context of today's modern world with our evolving understanding of science, psychology etc

http://fourthturningbuddhism.com/toward-fourth-turning/

breif summary >

Quote:
"Tibetan Buddhism is unique among religious traditions for its “turnings,” the recognition of its own evolutionary unfolding. Whereas most of the world’s religious institutions are purposely designed to preserve tradition and withstand the pressures of an ever-changing world, Buddhism is often praised for its ability to evolve as new knowledge and wisdom comes to light.

In addition to the three historic turnings attributed to Buddha, Ken Wilber is pointing out three evolutionary turnings that Buddhism has undergone [four according to some accounts, if you include Tantra. If so, we would be talking of a Fifth Turning. But we'll keep it simple with the more common three so far.] The first evolutionary turning, Theravadan Buddhism, is based on the realizations of Gautama Buddha himself, who illuminated the path of nirvana (the end of misery). The second turning, Mayahana Buddhism, stressed that “nirvana and samsara are not two.” The third turning, Vajrayana Buddhism, added an exquisite set of practices for realizing our true nature. Buddhism, it would seem, is now ripe for yet another turning of the wheel.

Since the last major evolution of Buddhism over a thousand years ago, we have witnessed astonishing advancements in science, art, psychology, technology, governance, values, cultural attitudes, and almost every other facet of our lives. These developments have utterly transformed our humanity, redefining our very sense of self in radical ways, and have brought a dramatic increase of freedom and material abundance to the world at large.

We are now beginning to experience a historic integration of science, spirit, culture, and technology, an evolutionary confluence of all that is Good, Beautiful, and True. It is within this extraordinary confluence that our spiritual traditions now find themselves, faced with a momentous opportunity to transcend the mythic roots shared by all the world’s religions, to recognize and include the undeniable fruits of the modern and postmodern revolutions, and to re-emerge as an inexhaustible and irrefutable source of wisdom, compassion, and liberation for the world.

So will there be a Fourth Turning of Buddhism? We certainly think it is possible, but it is up to the Buddhist world at large to decide where all of this might go. We think we have some good ideas about what a genuine Fourth Turning might look like—what it might include, how we might get there—which we offer to the world with great enthusiasm and great humility."


Last edited by Vasana on Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:04 pm 
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I particulary liked the point about integrating what is known as shadow work with Buddhsim, especially within the west...It tends to be a common theme within spiritual communties and at some places within the sangha, to repress,supress or disown parts of the psyche and attempt to dis-identify with the aggregates and kleshas, without first having re-embodied all aspects that comprise our relative personalities and then recognizing their insubstantial nature.


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" Shadow Work

Roger Walsh, M.D., PhD, is a psychiatrist, philosopher, and Buddhist teacher. He recently told me that in the meditation retreats in which he has participated, of the questions he is asked by meditators during their meeting sessions, approximately 80% of his responses are psychotherapeutic in nature, and 20% are directly meditative. And neither Buddhism, nor any other of the great meditative systems, have hardly any teachings on the nature of the repressed unconscious and its “shadow” material. There is much very useful information on the afflictive emotions, how to handle dysfunctional states, what we would today call “positive psychology,” and so on. But as for material that is explicitly forced out of consciousness and into unconscious areas of the mind, from there to be displaced, denied, projected, or otherwise repressed—leaving in their place painful neurotic symptoms—we have very little. And meditation does not necessarily access this material, although in some cases it can certainly help. But it can also make matters worse as well. Many neurotic symptoms come from a dis-owning and dis‑identifying with unwanted impulses or desires; yet much of meditation is a type of “dis‑identifying” or letting go of personal identity, and if that attitude is taken directly with material that has already been dis-owned, the result will only make matters worse, and the dis‑owned material is further dis-owned. This material must first be re‑owned, then integrated with the psyche, and then—and only then—let go of, dis‑identified with.

But of this type of action, we find little in the meditation literature. A few simple psychotherapeutic techniques—such as identifying repressed material, re-owning it, integrating it, then letting it go—would help to handle that nearly 80% of the problems that seem to arise during meditation. But until then, the only advice most meditation teachers have for their students is, “Intensify your efforts!,” exactly what is not needed."


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:28 am 
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:popcorn:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:04 am 
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Quote:
"Tibetan Buddhism is unique among religious traditions for its “turnings,” the recognition of its own evolutionary unfolding.


No, it's not. Written by someone who has obviously never touched East Asian Buddhism.

~~Huifeng

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:18 am 
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Vasana wrote:
It tends to be a common theme within spiritual communties and at some places within the sangha, to repress,supress or disown parts of the psyche and attempt to dis-identify with the aggregates and kleshas, without first having re-embodied all aspects that comprise our relative personalities and then recognizing their insubstantial nature.
Isn't embodiment a necessary precondition for Awakening? Does Awakening occur if there is repression, supression, or disowning?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:01 am 
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Nemo wrote:
:popcorn:


I join you in some popcorn eating..... :popcorn: :popcorn:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:25 am 
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Quote:
We are now beginning to experience a historic integration of science, spirit, culture, and technology, an evolutionary confluence of all that is Good, Beautiful, and True. It is within this extraordinary confluence that our spiritual traditions now find themselves, faced with a momentous opportunity to transcend the mythic roots shared by all the world’s religions, to recognize and include the undeniable fruits of the modern and postmodern revolutions, and to re-emerge as an inexhaustible and irrefutable source of wisdom, compassion, and liberation for the world.

So will there be a Fourth Turning of Buddhism? We certainly think it is possible, but it is up to the Buddhist world at large to decide where all of this might go. We think we have some good ideas about what a genuine Fourth Turning might look like—what it might include, how we might get there—which we offer to the world with great enthusiasm and great humility."
Well, let's hope that this 'Fourth Turning', whatever it will mean, has its basis on duhkha & its cessation and not another repackaged or smuggled idea along the lines of reducing the sublime Buddha Dharma into another Google's 'Search Inside Yourself' or Sam Harris' stunt with Vipassana...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:28 am 
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Seems to me that KW wants to "put it all together" and come up with something new.
Instead of that the Buddha took it all apart, and found what is true.

But of course if Maitreya shows up and endorses him, I'll have to eat crow.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:06 am 
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Huifeng wrote:
Quote:
"Tibetan Buddhism is unique among religious traditions for its “turnings,” the recognition of its own evolutionary unfolding.


No, it's not. Written by someone who has obviously never touched East Asian Buddhism.

~~Huifeng


Not really true. Ken is a free thinker, an academic, but ignorant of East Asian Buddhism he's not.
He has been studying with H.H. Penor Rinpoche and Chagdud Rinpoche for quite some time.
I've sat next to him on several occasions.

I like some of is ideas.
That said, I don't buy this particular idea.
Better as a transpersonal psychologist than philosopher.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:18 am 
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Is Ken Wilber fully trained in any traditional Buddhist tradition?

I have read several articles he has written and clearly he is a deep thinker but I am wondering if he has received any in-depth training in Buddhism. Such training would be helpful if one were to try and bring about a "Fourth Turning of the Wheel".

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:00 am 
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I believe Da Free John called his stuff "Advaitayana Buddhism" for a while, and presented it as a fourth yana, after Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana.

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Last edited by dzogchungpa on Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:02 am 
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ngodrup wrote:
Not really true. Ken is a free thinker, an academic, but ignorant of East Asian Buddhism he's not.
He has been studying with H.H. Penor Rinpoche and Chagdud Rinpoche for quite some time.

As far as I know, Tibetan Buddhism is not generally considered to be part of East Asian Buddhism.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:09 am 
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Malhotra gives several critiques of Wilber in his book "Indra's Net":

...sleight of hand nature of many such appropriations and the effort to develop and re-package them into marketable "original" systems of thought. A prominent example is Ken Wilber's well known and extensive empire, based on what he calls Integral Theory, which is heavily dependent on several Hindu and Buddhist sources in ways that Wilber does not acknowledge. "
Pg. 261

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In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:16 am 
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"Ken Wilber's Integral Christianity is a prominent example of such self-deceptions. Just as the age old Hebraic/Hellenistic conflict has never been reconciled, Wilber's movement to digest Dharma into Christian History centrism is flawed. Major amendments to Christian doctrine are still necessary for it to become astika."

Malhotra, Rajiv
Indra's Net pg.280

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In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:25 am 
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Who turns the wheel?

Buddha turns the Wheel, that's who.

So.....first, we need a Buddha, then, perhaps, a fourth turning. Cart before the horse, innit??? :shrug:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:27 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
Who turns the wheel?

Buddha turns the Wheel, that's who.

So.....first, we need a Buddha, then, perhaps, a fourth turning. Cart before the horse, innit??? :shrug:

Like I said, if Maitreya comes and endorses him, I'll eat crow.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:41 am 
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You both have a point, the way he appropriates the term "Turning of the Wheel" is highly presumptuous.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:54 am 
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A crow landed to feed on my deck today... no worries, I think you are safe.

Just to add a bit of contrast.... only thing I know about Ken came from his book, No Boundary, 25 years ago. It was one of the first books I read, even before Buddhism. It resonated with me, not knowing anything. So, it's hard to assess anything much in the big picture. However, even back then a few years later, I could not resonate with his theory of hierarchies. I often wonder what I would think of No Boundary if I read it again. Don't feel the need, it served the purpose back in the day.

linda


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:17 am 
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I don't think that coming up with seemingly new ways to play with your own phenomena will liberate you from them.

Or to put it in terms Wilber would probably like, a la Robert Anton Wilson, making new maps of the same territory is still going to give you a map of the same territory.

Adi


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:35 am 
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ngodrup wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
Quote:
"Tibetan Buddhism is unique among religious traditions for its “turnings,” the recognition of its own evolutionary unfolding.


No, it's not. Written by someone who has obviously never touched East Asian Buddhism.

~~Huifeng


Not really true. Ken is a free thinker, an academic, but ignorant of East Asian Buddhism he's not.
He has been studying with H.H. Penor Rinpoche and Chagdud Rinpoche for quite some time.
I've sat next to him on several occasions.

I like some of is ideas.
That said, I don't buy this particular idea.
Better as a transpersonal psychologist than philosopher.


Well, if he knew even the basics of East Asian Buddhism, he'd know that the idea of "turnings" exists there too. This is because it derives from the Indian Buddhist tradition. So, how could he say "Tibetan Buddhism is unique among religious traditions for its “turnings,” the recognition of its own evolutionary unfolding" (emphasis added)? I don't see how studying with Penor Rinpoche or Chagdud Rinpoche qualifies as understanding of East Asian Buddhism, either.

Didn't mean to make a big deal out of this. But, when one reads the first line, and it's just so obviously exaggerated... Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

~~Huifeng

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