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 Post subject: Make Life Meaningless
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:54 am 
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There was a topic Buddhism as Existential Nihilism. I can only agree that life in Buddhism is meaningless. And it is not only meaningless, it is samsara, beginningless and endless dissatisfaction. Miao Yun wrote a chapter What is the Significance of Life? that sums up neatly that the only meaning Buddhism provides is to achieve liberation. Similar conclusions were drawn in the mentioned topic. What is forgotten is that Buddhism is not about saying how things are but how one should see them.

Renunciation and bodhicitta are qualities to develop. Before engaging in the path to enlightenment one naturally believes that life is full of meaning. That there are things (wealth, sex, power, knowledge, etc.) that are worth the trouble. And that is clinging, that is attachment, the great evil. Seeing that all phenomena are empty clears away that attachment. In other words, meaninglessness needs to be realised.

Such a view found in that realisation is not unique to Buddhism. Philosophers and religious thinkers all talk about it. It is in the face of apparent meaninglessness that people come up with various answers. They created answers because of the fear of nothingness. The Buddha, on the other hand, taught that it is that desire to have something to hold on to is the root of the problem.

The ideal life proposed by Buddhism is that of a beggar, who is content with the bare necessities of life. Thus, being busy with family, career, study and the other distractions of life that most of us call normal things to do, is meaningless and even harmful from the Buddhist perspective. And that makes Buddhism more than nihilism (in the Western philosophical sense), it is the ultimate refutation of what non-Buddhist everyday people call life.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:37 pm 
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I believe that Buddhism makes life meaningful rather than meaningless. ;)

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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Astus wrote:
The Buddha, on the other hand, taught that it is that desire to have something to hold on to is the root of the problem.

Thus, being busy with family, career, study and the other distractions of life that most of us call normal things to do, is meaningless and even harmful from the Buddhist perspective. And that makes Buddhism more than nihilism (in the Western philosophical sense), it is the ultimate refutation of what non-Buddhist everyday people call life.


i think we can generalize buddhism saying that samsaric activities are meaningless or futile. but to generalize that life is meaningless or should be meaningless goes against the buddhist thought from my perspective. it sounds nihilist to say this precious human rebirth is or should be meaningless.

also vajrayana offers such a wide variety of skillful means that having a normal life should not be a problem to a person of the highest capacity.

EDIT:

i have to say that this ultimate refutation of non buddhist activities seems like a theravada approach. but mahayana opens up so many dharma doors that you can lead a normal life and be a practitioner upholding the bodhisattva motive and ideal. this is what Lama Zopa Rinpoche teaches. to make every activity, all samsaric activities meaningful ( cause of liberation ) by mind training or with whatever methods we have in the vast scale of different methods and teachings.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Last edited by KonchokZoepa on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:53 pm 
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more meaningful header would be '' give up meaningless activities ''… :twothumbsup:


with this logic the header that is active seems to suggest to engage in samsaric activities, thus to make life meaningless.

or another header could be '' make samsara meaningless '', thus giving life and the path of dharma real meaning and life.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:55 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
I believe that Buddhism makes life meaningful rather than meaningless. ;)


Care to elaborate?

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:57 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
it sounds nihilist to say this precious human rebirth is or should be meaningless.

also vajrayana offers such a wide variety of skillful means that having a normal life should not be a problem to a person of the highest capacity.


It is nihilist. Vajrayana offers skilful means to what end? Liberation. Liberation from life (and death). And while there is contemplation on the preciousness of life, it is precious only because one can practise the Dharma. And then there is the contemplation on the meaninglessness of samsara.

Also, why would one want to stick to any normal life?

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:04 pm 
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life of a beggar or especially a monks life can be ideal for dharma practice, but its not for everybody, and the buddha also taught about the right livelihood. thus making your your money to get food and shelter. i think the whole thing is a bit more complicated than to label every lifestyle as samsaric and meaningless from the path of Dharma viewpoint. Great teachers teach that no matter what the outer conditions are, you can always work on the inner conditions and improve your practice. and sometimes the hard and stressful conditions of ordinary life, maybe family life can be very fruitful for practice to develop enlightened qualities. we need not to be monks in forests to advance on the path.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:23 pm 
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If you truly believed that life is meaningless,
and that the only worthwhile activity is striving for liberation,
you wouldn't have wasted time posting to this forum.

If you read to the bottom of Miao Yun's "What is the Significance of Life?"
(the link you provided)
it reads:
Life is meaningful. Not only should we discover its worthiness, we should also realize its ultimate significance. With this human life, we can progress to the attainment of Buddhahood. How precious our lives are!

.
.
.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:29 pm 
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:
If you truly believed that life is meaningless,
and that the only worthwhile activity is striving for liberation,
you wouldn't have wasted time posting to this forum.


Besides that it is a waste of time, it could as well be considered bodhisattva activity. :)

Quote:
If you read to the bottom of Miao Yun's "What is the Significance of Life?"
(the link you provided)
it reads:
Life is meaningful. Not only should we discover its worthiness, we should also realize its ultimate significance. With this human life, we can progress to the attainment of Buddhahood. How precious our lives are!


And so I wrote in the OP: "the only meaning Buddhism provides is to achieve liberation." And that's what your quote says.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:33 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
we need not to be monks in forests to advance on the path.


I didn't say one must be a monk to be a Buddhist. It is simply the ideal way of life, full renunciation. And so aspiring on the path means aspiring for renouncing life.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:40 pm 
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Astus wrote:
I can only agree that life in Buddhism is meaningless.

I don't think I understand what "meaningless" means. I feel like it should be obvious, so that I can agree or disagree. Can you more fully explain what "life is meaningless" means? Do you mean - there are no goals, other than liberation, that are worth achieving? Do you mean that nothing is enjoyable at all, even in a relative sense? And that one should actually try to think in those ways?

If so, I don't agree that is all Buddhism is about. That's primarily because, since we do want to focus on that hard-core reality - the reality is, we are here. Therefore, the matter of liberation becomes tied to the matter of participation. One's manner of participation then, is entirely relevant and meaningful. And Buddhist teachings have a lot to say about that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:25 pm 
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kirk5a wrote:
Do you mean - there are no goals, other than liberation, that are worth achieving?


Yes, like that.

Quote:
If so, I don't agree that is all Buddhism is about. That's primarily because, since we do want to focus on that hard-core reality - the reality is, we are here. Therefore, the matter of liberation becomes tied to the matter of participation. One's manner of participation then, is entirely relevant and meaningful. And Buddhist teachings have a lot to say about that.


Participation in what? Life? One is already bound to all sorts of things, and liberation is about ending that. The path is moving away from being engaged in phenomena, in life.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm 
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Astus wrote:
I didn't say one must be a monk to be a Buddhist. It is simply the ideal way of life, full renunciation. And so aspiring on the path means aspiring for renouncing life.


I'll tell you an interesting story. I didn't get married until later in life. By that, I mean in my late 30's. Prior to that, I lived, as you say, perhaps not with full renunciation, not ordained as a monk, but living on very little, for many years on less that $6,000 a year, devoting as much time to meditation, dharma study, involvement with the local sangha, and even spending a year working at a retreat center, which I left because, frankly, it was just too perfect.

When I got married (my wife is not a Buddhist, and generally has a very low opinion of anything remotely 'religious') and we had a baby, I was an at-home dad. Fortunately, I can work from home. During his first 2 years, our son hardly ever slept. Maybe for a half hour at a time. So, neither did I (intense sleep deprivation is an amazing thing in itself). He would only drink formula (and only if it was cold) which meant that it was my job to do the feeding, and getting up all night. When he would sleep, even if i tried to meditate, I couldn't, because my attention was always waiting for that second when he would wake up. Candles and incense and little bowls of stuff (Tibetan tradition) were just totally out of the question. I had time to read a little, mumble mantras, visualize filling bottles of formula as offerings, but that was about it.

Now, generally, people say, "yes, it is hard to practice Dharma as a householder....so many distractions, so many other obligations" and this would at first appear to be a perfect example of that statement. But in fact, it was the best thing that could have possible happened, because Now I could no longer rely on all of the routines and rituals and trappings and "stuff" that had made up the cozy little Buddhist comfort zone I had relied on for so many years. It had to be internalized. Dharma practice is like blood in that regard. You can't see it from the outside, but it has to be running through every vein in your body.

And I think about this when the topic comes up about how prince Siddhartha left his family (but with a big palace, and servants), and basically abandoned his comfort zone, and I think sometimes, that is what is important. It's not so much about whether you are a lay person or a monk. It's about getting past complacency. The attachment to that identity, those fictional character we create for ourselves. I think to myself, "put all your buddhist stuff, your dharma language, your beads, your intellectualizing, all that stuff that you think makes you a good buddhist, just put that all in a box up on a shelf..then show me your dharma!"

For me, that is what renunciation is. As soon as you have settled down into a Buddhist cozy spot or whatever, renounce that. Renounce that "Here I am, at last " thing.Even renounce renouncing it.
For Siddhartha it might mean leaving his family. but for a non-married person, it might mean getting married.

Moving away from one's comfort zone is really being a 'homeless wanderer". It really puts one's practice to the test.
And the funny thing is, the more you move outside of your comfort zone, the bigger it gets.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:46 pm 
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Astus wrote:
The path is moving away from being engaged in phenomena, in life.

The path is about moving away from dualism. Phenomena is empty.
if you keep setting up these opposites, that's not the path.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:50 pm 
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Astus wrote:

Quote:
If so, I don't agree that is all Buddhism is about. That's primarily because, since we do want to focus on that hard-core reality - the reality is, we are here. Therefore, the matter of liberation becomes tied to the matter of participation. One's manner of participation then, is entirely relevant and meaningful. And Buddhist teachings have a lot to say about that.


Participation in what? Life? One is already bound to all sorts of things, and liberation is about ending that. The path is moving away from being engaged in phenomena, in life.



you seem to make it sound like renunciation and the path has something to do with the external. again, this is a hinayana/theravada monk approach.

for example the Tibetan Rinpoches are very very engaged in life, but still liberated. renunciation according to Lama Yeshe has nothing to do with the external.
rather it is a process to renounce self grasping and ego clinging, and attachment to things. you can let go every thing in your life and say you renounce that, but if you still have attachment you do not have true renunciation, on the other hand if you renounce attachment from the inside and do not give up your stuff you have still achieved true renunciation.

maybe you have a deeper understanding when you mean moving away from being engaged in life or phenomena. but if this only means the outer phenomena and outer world, i could not disagree with you more. again i would have to say that it is an inner process. and if you want to be disengaged i don't know but being disattached or without desire would sound more like the path to me. and again this is an internal process. of course external changes or limitations can be of help to some people in some situations.

anyway, i think this full renunciation of worldly life is a theravada monk approach and if you want to do that to the fullest the best option is to become a forest monk, no doubt.

but if we are going to argue or even have a discussion about this matter it should be noted that Buddha opened 84,000 different Dharma Doors and no doubt this worldly life renunciation is one door. but to say it is the absolute and only right way would be foolish.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm 
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Well, in the Great Vehicle it seems that the ultimate meaning of life is helping others along the way to our own liberation, or perhaps truly helping others after our own liberation, either way you want to slice it. To me it seems that the message is that life IS meaningful, it is just that we miss the the forest for the trees so to speak, all the daily preoccupations, nonsense, and wrong views that can't truly bring happiness to us or anyone else. When we focus on them individually it inspires neuroses and clinging, when we see a wider view of interdependence powered by Bodhicitta, that's where the real meaning is.

Quote:
The path is moving away from being engaged in phenomena, in life.


I dunno, making vows about existing as long as there is space in order to ease the suffering of sentient beings doesn't seem like moving away from life exactly, it's an attempt to view the whole rather than get involved with the pieces, but honestly I can't imagine a more meaningful endeavor.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:06 pm 
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There's no problem with living. The problem is samsara. Our dualistic vision.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:14 pm 
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:
The path is about moving away from dualism. Phenomena is empty.


Away from being engaged, not phenomena themselves. We are ourselves phenomena. It is the attachment that needs to be removed.

Quote:
I'll tell you an interesting story. ...


Seeing life's meaninglessness does not mean living in this or that way. Buddhism sets the ideal form of life as the renunciate (not necessarily an ordained monastic). The point is that all goals but liberation is futile in Buddhism, and liberation is leaving behind all aspiration and goals. As Linji said, "If you engage in any seeking, it will all be pain. Much better to do nothing." (Sasaki, p19)

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
I believe that Buddhism makes life meaningful rather than meaningless. ;)


Care to elaborate?
Because, even if one merely applies the teachings of the Shravakayana, every life situation can becomes a vehicle for liberation. Even if it is not the "instantaneous" liberation promised by (some of the) Mahayana and the Vajryana, every situation is still an opportunity to gather merit.

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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:44 pm 
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http://dzongsar.justdharma.com/2012/05/01/the-noble-wealth-of-feeling-sad-about-this-life/

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