A common misperception.

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A common misperception.

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:27 pm

This is aimed at those who are newer to Dharma.

There is a prevailing view that the Dharma is the means to fix Samsara.
dharma is in fact the way to stop identifying with Samsara.
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby smcj » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:46 pm

Simon E. wrote:This is aimed at those who are newer to Dharma.

There is a prevailing view that the Dharma is the means to fix Samsara.
dharma is in fact the way to stop identifying with Samsara.

:good:


Good point, well stated. There is no ultimate lasting fix for samsara.
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Huifeng » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:51 am

Another common misperception is, with the use of the sanskrit word "samsara", most english users really don't know what it means. By keeping the sanskrit, or transliterating it, it quickly becomes a kind of a pronoun, a name for a "thing", or worse, the name of some "place" which one is "in".

Similar problems occur with the word "buddha", "dharma" and so on. As non-users of Indic languages, most do not and cannot see the basic meaning of these terms. eg. "buddha" becomes the name of a person, "Buddha", rather than an adjective, etc.

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Re: A common misperception.

Postby dharmagoat » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:34 am

Simon E. wrote:This is aimed at those who are newer to Dharma.

There is a prevailing view that the Dharma is the means to fix Samsara.
dharma is in fact the way to stop identifying with Samsara.

Part of the confusion seems to stem from the bodhisattva ideal of remaining in samsara until all other beings are liberated. This may imply to some that samsara will eventually come to an end.
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby seeker242 » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:35 am

Stop identifying with samsara? But if "samsara is nirvana", what need is there to do that? Nirvana is free from suffering, is it not? So if you identify with Nirvana, where is the problem? :thinking:
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:30 am

seeker242 wrote:Stop identifying with samsara? But if "samsara is nirvana", what need is there to do that? Nirvana is free from suffering, is it not? So if you identify with Nirvana, where is the problem? :thinking:


Samsara isn't nirvana.
Samsara is inseparable from nirvana.

There is a difference.
.
.
.
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Huifeng » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:54 am

The problems of mixing our metaphors...

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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:01 am

Huifeng wrote:Another common misperception is, with the use of the sanskrit word "samsara", most english users really don't know what it means. By keeping the sanskrit, or transliterating it, it quickly becomes a kind of a pronoun, a name for a "thing", or worse, the name of some "place" which one is "in".

Similar problems occur with the word "buddha", "dharma" and so on. As non-users of Indic languages, most do not and cannot see the basic meaning of these terms. eg. "buddha" becomes the name of a person, "Buddha", rather than an adjective, etc.

~~ Huifeng

:namaste:
Something that makes sense to me Ven Huifeng is samsara as an activity. Something that we perpetuate...?
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby smcj » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:35 am

Huifeng wrote:Another common misperception is, with the use of the sanskrit word "samsara", most english users really don't know what it means. By keeping the sanskrit, or transliterating it, it quickly becomes a kind of a pronoun, a name for a "thing", or worse, the name of some "place" which one is "in".

Similar problems occur with the word "buddha", "dharma" and so on. As non-users of Indic languages, most do not and cannot see the basic meaning of these terms. eg. "buddha" becomes the name of a person, "Buddha", rather than an adjective, etc.

~~ Huifeng

Samsara is the cycle of life, death and rebirth. Effectively that makes the period between birth and death, or in other words our entire lives, part of the cycle. So from the Shravakayana perspective if one is alive and continuing to create the conditions for further rebirth, one is "in" the cycle of samsara. When the Buddha spoke of his attainments he said, "I have ceased the outflows that made me human."
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby oushi » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:10 am

Simon E. wrote:dharma is in fact the way to stop identifying with Samsara.

Can you prove that it not just another misperception?
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:01 am

My views on this are not original. They are the views handed down to me by my teachers.
I am not going to respond to one of your word games Oushi. The ones where you set the rules and things mean what YOU decide they mean. I have seen you dealing from the bottom of the pack too many times... :tongue:
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby oushi » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:46 am

I think my question is valid, and a proper one. You may run from it, to personal stuff, but it will not help. I have nothing to be ashamed of.
You want to cure people from their misperceptions while everything you have is a... belief that your teacher was correct and you understood him correctly. That's your belief, I ask for a proof. You seem to have problem with those.
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:52 am

smcj wrote:
Huifeng wrote:Another common misperception is, with the use of the sanskrit word "samsara", most english users really don't know what it means. By keeping the sanskrit, or transliterating it, it quickly becomes a kind of a pronoun, a name for a "thing", or worse, the name of some "place" which one is "in".

Similar problems occur with the word "buddha", "dharma" and so on. As non-users of Indic languages, most do not and cannot see the basic meaning of these terms. eg. "buddha" becomes the name of a person, "Buddha", rather than an adjective, etc.

~~ Huifeng

Samsara is the cycle of life, death and rebirth. Effectively that makes the period between birth and death, or in other words our entire lives, part of the cycle. So from the Shravakayana perspective if one is alive and continuing to create the conditions for further rebirth, one is "in" the cycle of samsara. When the Buddha spoke of his attainments he said, "I have ceased the outflows that made me human."

Given that these are no one to one substitutes in any modern language do you see any way forward here Venerable ?
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Seishin » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:01 pm

I think a proper understanding of the words is the way forward for sure. Like Ven Huifeng said, if you understand the word "samsara" properly then the concept of "improving samsara" would hold no meaning

Gassho,
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:05 pm

Hence the thread....which was prompted by yet another discussion..on another forum, which indicated that somehow samsara could be fixed, and that the purpose of Buddhadharma was evolutionary...and would result in a superior humanity.
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Seishin » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:07 pm

oushi wrote:
Simon E. wrote:dharma is in fact the way to stop identifying with Samsara.

Can you prove that it not just another misperception?


Simon E. wrote:Hence the thread....which was prompted by yet another discussion..on another forum, which indicated that somehow samsara could be fixed, and that the purpose of Buddhadharma was evolutionary...and would result in a superior humanity.


Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live — the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?" Instead of a place, it's a process: the tendency to keep creating worlds and then moving into them. As one world falls apart, you create another one and go there. At the same time, you bump into other people who are creating their own worlds, too.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... msara.html
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Seishin » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:11 pm

This is why the Buddha tried to find the way to stop samsara-ing. Once he had found it, he encouraged others to follow it, too. Because samsara-ing is something that each of us does, each of us has to stop it him or her self alone. If samsara were a place, it might seem selfish for one person to look for an escape, leaving others behind. But when you realize that it's a process, there's nothing selfish about stopping it at all. It's like giving up an addiction or an abusive habit. When you learn the skills needed to stop creating your own worlds of suffering, you can share those skills with others so that they can stop creating theirs. At the same time, you'll never have to feed off the worlds of others, so to that extent you're lightening their load as well.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... msara.html
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:19 pm

Yes like 'ego' samsara is not a thing , but an activity. Self perpetuating and fuelled by wrong identification.
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby seeker242 » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:31 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
seeker242 wrote:Stop identifying with samsara? But if "samsara is nirvana", what need is there to do that? Nirvana is free from suffering, is it not? So if you identify with Nirvana, where is the problem? :thinking:


Samsara isn't nirvana.
Samsara is inseparable from nirvana.

There is a difference.
.
.
.


What's the difference? If inseparable means "cannot be treated separately" then how can you say they are different?
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Re: A common misperception.

Postby Seishin » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Is = they are the same
Inseparable = unable to be separated. ie two different things that are intrinsically related

My 2 cents
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